Dillon Pyron

Thus spake "Scott" <[email protected]> :

    >"Robert" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected].. .
    >> Can we get this into perspective please
    >Good luck with that.

To paraphrase Far Side

blah blah blah blah Skeptic blah blah blah
--
dillon

I didn't climb to the top of the
food chain to become a vegetarian.

Popeye

"Skeptic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:CIpfg.999438$xm3.633823@attbi_s21...

    >>>>> One last comment about the gloves. This is drectly from the Bonaire
    >>>>> Marine Park.
    >>>>> Last but not least is that local law under supervision of the Bonaire
    >>>>> Marine Park protects the reefs. Anything in the water from 0-200 feet
    >>>>> is protected. Spear fishing, anchoring, diving with gloves, contact
    >>>>> with the reef. is prohibited.
    >>>> What diving with gloves has to do with any of that other stuff is
    >>>> beyond me, because none of that other stuff has anything to do with why
    >>>> I wear gloves.
    >>> Diving with gloves has the same effect as anchoring - it tends to lead
    >>> to the death of coral and thus destruction of the reef. If you can't
    >>> dive without putting your paw prints all over the sea life, then you
    >>> really need to learn how to dive.
    >> If diving with gloves has anything to do with that, you need to take up
    >> stamp collecting.
    > Reef preservation seems to be a foreign concept to you. There is no
    > anchoring in Bonaire, no removing sea life, no man handling coral, etc. -
    > and these are some of the reasons why Bonaire year after year is
    > considered a divers' paradise. This is why it will continue to be such
    > for generations to come. Coral are an animal species and very easily
    > killed. Settling too much sand on them can kill some species. When
    > divers wear gloves - and in the Netherlands Antilles where the water temp
    > is around 80 this is almost always by inexperienced divers - it creates a
    > situation where divers are more apt to touch. With gloves on, more things
    > get touched and usually much more forcefully. These are facts and the
    > very facts that led Bonaire to outlaw gloves.
    > If it bothers you, don't dive there. You won't be missed.

Basic diving skill seems to be a foreign concept to you.

I've worn gloves on all my thousand plus dives, in all environments.

Conservation is paramount in every aspect my diving.

Gloves have absolutely -nothing- to do with wear and tear on the reef,
it's the company assholes like you keep.

Since Bonaire seems to be proliferated by the kind of diver such as
yourself that can't stay off the reef, you're right, I won't be missed.


--
Popeye
"If one does as God does enough times, one
will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

www.finalprotectivefire.com

Popeye

"Jer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Skeptic wrote:
    >> "Popeye" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email protected]...
    >>>"Skeptic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>news:1Vlfg.11237$1i1.6024@attbi_s72...
    >>>>"Jer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >>>>news:[email protected]...
    >>>>>ginmill01 wrote:
    >>>>>>One last comment about the gloves. This is drectly from the Bonaire
    >>>>>>Marine Park.
    >>>>>>Last but not least is that local law under supervision of the Bonaire
    >>>>>>Marine Park protects the reefs. Anything in the water from 0-200 feet
    >>>>>>is protected. Spear fishing, anchoring, diving with gloves, contact
    >>>>>>with the reef. is prohibited.
    >>>>>What diving with gloves has to do with any of that other stuff is
    >>>>>beyond me, because none of that other stuff has anything to do with why
    >>>>>I wear gloves.
    >>>>Diving with gloves has the same effect as anchoring - it tends to lead
    >>>>to the death of coral and thus destruction of the reef. If you can't
    >>>>dive without putting your paw prints all over the sea life, then you
    >>>>really need to learn how to dive.
    >>> If diving with gloves has anything to do with that, you need to take up
    >>> stamp collecting.
    >> Reef preservation seems to be a foreign concept to you. There is no
    >> anchoring in Bonaire, no removing sea life, no man handling coral, etc. -
    >> and these are some of the reasons why Bonaire year after year is
    >> considered a divers' paradise. This is why it will continue to be such
    >> for generations to come. Coral are an animal species and very easily
    >> killed. Settling too much sand on them can kill some species. When
    >> divers wear gloves - and in the Netherlands Antilles where the water temp
    >> is around 80 this is almost always by inexperienced divers - it creates a
    >> situation where divers are more apt to touch. With gloves on, more
    >> things get touched and usually much more forcefully. These are facts and
    >> the very facts that led Bonaire to outlaw gloves.
    >> If it bothers you, don't dive there. You won't be missed.
    > Whoosh!



Goesynchronous.

--
Popeye
"If one does as God does enough times, one
will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

www.finalprotectivefire.com

Popeye

"Skeptic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:9FWfg.1002009$xm3.345245@attbi_s21...
    > "bob crownfield" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:wbMfg.563$Cw3.57@trndny01...
    >> Skeptic wrote:
    >>> "Alan Street" <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> wrote in message
    >>> news:310520061805258635%agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com ...
    >>>> You really have no idea what you're talking about. Do you honestly
    >>>> think gloves are the cause of reef damage?
    >>> There are many causes. Gloves when diving is one of them. That is the
    >>> entire basis for their being banned in Bonaire.
    >> you are blindingly illogical.
    >> gloves do not damage coral.
    >> poor divers damage coral.
    > which is lessened if you take away their gloves making it less likely
    > they'll touch things and maybe learn how to get neutral rather than push
    > off from coral head to coral head.


Skeptic must be a liberal with -that- line of reasoning.

--
Popeye
"If one does as God does enough times, one
will become as God is." -Dr. Hannibal Lector.

www.finalprotectivefire.com
>
    >

Popeye

"Skeptic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:FFsfg.999651$xm3.138567@attbi_s21...
    > "Alan Street" <agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com> wrote in message
    > news:310520061929589180%agstreet@nonono_san.rr.com ...
    >> In article <SVrfg.999582$xm3.882937@attbi_s21>, Skeptic
    >> <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> ? > ?
    >> ? > ?
    >> ? > You really have no idea what you're talking about. Do you honestly
    >> ? > think gloves are the cause of reef damage?
    >> ?
    >> ? There are many causes. Gloves when diving is one of them. That is the
    >> ? entire basis for their being banned in Bonaire.
    >> ?
    >> ?
    >> Gloves have nothing to do with the problem. Start thinking about the
    >> root cause, not about the symptoms.
    >> The ban on Bonaire is based on ignorance, not logic. By your postings,
    >> you're part of the ignorance.
    > Nice to see you insult an entire island's philosophy. If you don't think
    > recreational divers with neoprene gloves on cause reef damage, you haven't
    > dived much.

Alan is an experienced -world- diver and traveler.

You dive one little marginal third world shithole.

How many dives do you have, anyway?

That you can verify?

>Inexperienced divers are like underwater wrecking balls.

Same as anywhere.

    >

Joe English

Skeptic wrote:
    > While your comments are interesting, the basic fact remains that by human
    > nature, a diver (particularly a new one) will be more likely to
    > handle/touch/push off of coral when wearing gloves because they are
    > protective. Even that only accounted for 49% of the damage 20% of the time,
    > that is entirely avoidable reef damage which can be drastically reduced with
    > not using gloves.
    >
So it is inexperience not gloves

can you cite your statistics 49% of the damage 20% of the time??????

-Hh

Joe English wrote:
    > Skeptic wrote:
    > > While your comments are interesting, the basic fact remains that by human
    > > nature, a diver (particularly a new one) will be more likely to
    > > handle/touch/push off of coral when wearing gloves because they are
    > > protective. Even that only accounted for 49% of the damage 20% of the time,
    > > that is entirely avoidable reef damage which can be drastically reduced with
    > > not using gloves.
    > >
    > So it is inexperience not gloves
    > can you cite your statistics 49% of the damage 20% of the time??????


He's just trying to twist the numbers I had provided earlier, which had
come from an Australian study.

That study found that IIRC 70% of all damage came from 4% of the
divers, and that "most" (percentage unspecified) damage came from fin
contact.


My statement was that even if the gloves were the proverbial 49% (where
fins were 51%), it still doesn't matter, because as per the Parato
Principle (ie, 80/20 rule), you'll get the greatest benefit by focusing
on the proverbial 80% portion instead of the 20% portion.


Not that it really matters, as our "Skeptic" Brandon Stahl has decided
to stop responding to this thread. Brandon has probably written off
all of his critics as "Neanderthals" for being so "uncivilized"
regarding glove policy, but he probably doesn't realize that many
(most?) of the respondents don't wear gloves anyway...the criticism was
that Bonaire's policy is more of a political "feel good" than something
that will actually provide results.



-hh

Lee Bell

"-hh" wrote

    > Not that it really matters, as our "Skeptic" Brandon Stahl has decided
    > to stop responding to this thread. Brandon has probably written off
    > all of his critics as "Neanderthals" for being so "uncivilized"
    > regarding glove policy, but he probably doesn't realize that many
    > (most?) of the respondents don't wear gloves anyway...the criticism was
    > that Bonaire's policy is more of a political "feel good" than something
    > that will actually provide results.

One of us wears gloves on any dive except where the operator very
specifically prohibits them or where I, for specific reasons, like petting
sharks, decide not to wear them myself. They are preventative safety
devices that I don't always need, but definitely want if/when I do.

Lee

Skeptic

"-hh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] ups.com...
    > Joe English wrote:
    >> Skeptic wrote:
    >> > While your comments are interesting, the basic fact remains that by
    >> > human
    >> > nature, a diver (particularly a new one) will be more likely to
    >> > handle/touch/push off of coral when wearing gloves because they are
    >> > protective. Even that only accounted for 49% of the damage 20% of the
    >> > time,
    >> > that is entirely avoidable reef damage which can be drastically reduced
    >> > with
    >> > not using gloves.
    >> >
    >> So it is inexperience not gloves
    >> can you cite your statistics 49% of the damage 20% of the time??????
    > He's just trying to twist the numbers I had provided earlier, which had
    > come from an Australian study.

Hugh,
Wear gloves, don't wear gloves; follow the rules in Bonaire or don't follow
them - you're a big boy and can decide for yourself. This thread has long
outlived its intent. I have no interest in a flame war over something this
irrelevant, and you seem to have been involved in quite a few of those.

Sample: A snippet of a post directed at you:
* START QUOTE*
In Hugh Huntzinger's case, the attacks were even MORE personal than
Ron Lee and Lee Bell's personal attacks. Hugh took pains to TWIST
the content of my posts, fabricate LIES, and turned around to
attack me on ths basis of his fabricated lies.

Hugh's PERSONAL attack on me was based his own GRUDGE against ME,
stated publicly in Scuba-L, and not disputed by him in rec.scuba,
that he has held the same GRUDGE since 1996.

I tried SEVERAL times, in rec.scuba (documented) to conduct a
discussion with him, in good faith, including complimenting his
post on one occasion when I entered -- to no avail. Each time
Hugh turned it into his own personal GRUDGE battle. The present
threads on my Memorable Dive at Las Palmas, and the pix I posted
about that dive started exactly that way.
* END QUOTE*

Link:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...s&ct=clnk&cd=2

I just have neither the time nor the interest to have an internet
debate/discussion with someone who seems to enjoy internet flame wars.

-Hh

Skeptic wrote:

    > Hugh,
    > Wear gloves, don't wear gloves; follow the rules in Bonaire or don't follow
    > them - you're a big boy and can decide for yourself. I have no interest
    > in a flame war over something this irrelevant...

The thread can be summarized as follows:

"There's a No-Gloves rule on Bonaire".

"True, but it does little good".

"But there's a No-Gloves rule on Bonaire".

"Yes there is. And it makes little difference in protecting the reef".

"But, but, but (stammer) there's a No-Gloves rule on Bonaire!"



    > and you seem to have been involved in quite a few of those.
    > Sample: A snippet of a post directed at you:

Which was YA lame rant from Bob Ling, who has had absolutely no
credibility in any of these groups for years. To whit:

http://tinyurl.com/ngrby


    > I just have neither the time nor the interest to have an internet
    > debate/discussion with someone who seems to enjoy internet flame wars.

Sorry, but your actions speak louder than your words.

For the record, I do follow Bonaire's rules. Its just that I recognize
them as of little value.


-hh

Lee Bell

"Skeptic" wrote

    > Hugh, Wear gloves, don't wear gloves; follow the rules in Bonaire or don't
    > follow them - you're a big boy and can decide for yourself. This thread
    > has long outlived its intent. I have no interest in a flame war over
    > something this irrelevant, and you seem to have been involved in quite a
    > few of those.

Yet you continue to post to it. Your actions speak louder than your words.

    > Sample: A snippet of a post directed at you:
    > * START QUOTE*
    > In Hugh Huntzinger's case, the attacks were even MORE personal than
    > Ron Lee and Lee Bell's personal attacks. Hugh took pains to TWIST
    > the content of my posts, fabricate LIES, and turned around to
    > attack me on ths basis of his fabricated lies.
    > Hugh's PERSONAL attack on me was based his own GRUDGE against ME,
    > stated publicly in Scuba-L, and not disputed by him in rec.scuba,
    > that he has held the same GRUDGE since 1996.
    > I tried SEVERAL times, in rec.scuba (documented) to conduct a
    > discussion with him, in good faith, including complimenting his
    > post on one occasion when I entered -- to no avail. Each time
    > Hugh turned it into his own personal GRUDGE battle. The present
    > threads on my Memorable Dive at Las Palmas, and the pix I posted
    > about that dive started exactly that way.
    > * END QUOTE*

Congratulations. You've just quoted the biggest asshole in usenet history,
someone that has been kicked off of more forums than you've participated in.
You are known by the company you keep.

Lee

Lee Bell

"-hh" wrote

    > Sorry, but your actions speak louder than your words.

Funny, but I said exactly the same thing. Imagine that.

Lee

Skeptic

"-hh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected] oups.com...
    > Skeptic wrote:
    >> Hugh,
    >> Wear gloves, don't wear gloves; follow the rules in Bonaire or don't
    >> follow
    >> them - you're a big boy and can decide for yourself. I have no interest
    >> in a flame war over something this irrelevant...
    > The thread can be summarized as follows:
    > "There's a No-Gloves rule on Bonaire".
    > "True, but it does little good".
    > "But there's a No-Gloves rule on Bonaire".
    > "Yes there is. And it makes little difference in protecting the reef".
    > "But, but, but (stammer) there's a No-Gloves rule on Bonaire!"
    >> and you seem to have been involved in quite a few of those.
    >> Sample: A snippet of a post directed at you:
    > Which was YA lame rant from Bob Ling, who has had absolutely no
    > credibility in any of these groups for years. To whit:
    > http://tinyurl.com/ngrby
    >> I just have neither the time nor the interest to have an internet
    >> debate/discussion with someone who seems to enjoy internet flame wars.
    > Sorry, but your actions speak louder than your words.
    > For the record, I do follow Bonaire's rules. Its just that I recognize
    > them as of little value.

fair enough. We both follow the rules, I think they're good you don't. Can
we agree to disagree and leave the whole gloves talk behind us?

Dennis

"Skeptic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:2o2hg.18959$No1.4827@attbi_s71...
    > "-hh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected] ups.com...
    > > Joe English wrote:
    > >> Skeptic wrote:
    > >> > While your comments are interesting, the basic fact remains that by
    > >> > human
    > >> > nature, a diver (particularly a new one) will be more likely to
    > >> > handle/touch/push off of coral when wearing gloves because they are
    > >> > protective. Even that only accounted for 49% of the damage 20% of
the
    > >> > time,
    > >> > that is entirely avoidable reef damage which can be drastically
reduced
    > >> > with
    > >> > not using gloves.
    > >> >
    > >> So it is inexperience not gloves
    > >>
    > >> can you cite your statistics 49% of the damage 20% of the time??????
    > >
    > >
    > > He's just trying to twist the numbers I had provided earlier, which had
    > > come from an Australian study.
    > Hugh,
    > Wear gloves, don't wear gloves; follow the rules in Bonaire or don't
follow
    > them - you're a big boy and can decide for yourself. This thread has long
    > outlived its intent. I have no interest in a flame war over something
this
    > irrelevant, and you seem to have been involved in quite a few of those.
    > Sample: A snippet of a post directed at you:
    > * START QUOTE*
    > In Hugh Huntzinger's case, the attacks were even MORE personal than
    > Ron Lee and Lee Bell's personal attacks. Hugh took pains to TWIST
    > the content of my posts, fabricate LIES, and turned around to
    > attack me on ths basis of his fabricated lies.
    > Hugh's PERSONAL attack on me was based his own GRUDGE against ME,
    > stated publicly in Scuba-L, and not disputed by him in rec.scuba,
    > that he has held the same GRUDGE since 1996.
    > I tried SEVERAL times, in rec.scuba (documented) to conduct a
    > discussion with him, in good faith, including complimenting his
    > post on one occasion when I entered -- to no avail. Each time
    > Hugh turned it into his own personal GRUDGE battle. The present
    > threads on my Memorable Dive at Las Palmas, and the pix I posted
    > about that dive started exactly that way.
    > * END QUOTE*

and CLEARLY the author of the quote would be REEF FISH
(Large_Nassau_Grouper)

Bear in mind that REEF FISH has conducted his own usenet flame wars int he
past, and is not exactly an OBJECTIVE source.

    > Link:
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache...s&ct=clnk&cd=2
    > I just have neither the time nor the interest to have an internet
    > debate/discussion with someone who seems to enjoy internet flame wars.

Dennis

Clifford Beshers

Lee Bell wrote:
    > Congratulations. You've just quoted the biggest asshole in usenet history,

Whoa, whoa, whoa!

Who appointed you almighty giver of such an important award, eh? Damn
Floridians bypassing the voting process again!

We need nominations, position statements, primaries, debates! So many,
many choices, this must be done properly!

Now the first thing we need is an impartial nominating committee...