Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
Apr 3rd 2002, 8:35 am
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
We have been looking at the latest rail maps at Tranz Rail's various web sites. It
appears that there is now no rail services at all south of Christchurch such as to
dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne, and
none from Palmerston North to New Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland to
Rotorua seems to have been stopped. What's going on? CJB.
appears that there is now no rail services at all south of Christchurch such as to
dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne, and
none from Palmerston North to New Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland to
Rotorua seems to have been stopped. What's going on? CJB.
Apr 3rd 2002, 8:36 am
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
In article <[email protected] >, [email protected]
(Chris Brady) wrote:
> We have been looking at the latest rail maps at Tranz Rail's various web sites. It
> appears that there is now no rail services at all south of Christchurch such as to
> dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne, and
> none from Palmerston North to New Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland to
> Rotorua seems to have been stopped. What's going on? CJB.
it's called rail privatisation and the cutting of unprofitable routes not supported
by govt subsidy. Sound familiar?
Peter
--
Peter Ashby Wellcome Trust Biocentre University of Dundee, Scotland Reverse the Spam
and remove to email me.
(Chris Brady) wrote:
> We have been looking at the latest rail maps at Tranz Rail's various web sites. It
> appears that there is now no rail services at all south of Christchurch such as to
> dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne, and
> none from Palmerston North to New Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland to
> Rotorua seems to have been stopped. What's going on? CJB.
it's called rail privatisation and the cutting of unprofitable routes not supported
by govt subsidy. Sound familiar?
Peter
--
Peter Ashby Wellcome Trust Biocentre University of Dundee, Scotland Reverse the Spam
and remove to email me.
Apr 3rd 2002, 8:36 am
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
"Chris Brady" <[email protected]> wrote in message > web sites. It appears that
there is now no rail services at all south
> of Christchurch such as to dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from
> Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne, and none from Palmerston North to New
> Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland to Rotorua seems to have been
> stopped. What's going on? CJB.
Tranz Rail sold off the passenger services and the only ones taken were -
TranzAlpine TranzCoastal Auckland to Wellington - both day and night.
The Southerner was subsidised locally for a few months on condition that patronage
improved, which did not happen.
What basically happened was that a rail service which had to pay all of its costs
could not compete with public highways where heavy vehicles are still cross
subsidised by private motorists.
--
Tony Bailey Mercury World Travel Mercury Travel Books [email protected]
there is now no rail services at all south
> of Christchurch such as to dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from
> Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne, and none from Palmerston North to New
> Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland to Rotorua seems to have been
> stopped. What's going on? CJB.
Tranz Rail sold off the passenger services and the only ones taken were -
TranzAlpine TranzCoastal Auckland to Wellington - both day and night.
The Southerner was subsidised locally for a few months on condition that patronage
improved, which did not happen.
What basically happened was that a rail service which had to pay all of its costs
could not compete with public highways where heavy vehicles are still cross
subsidised by private motorists.
--
Tony Bailey Mercury World Travel Mercury Travel Books [email protected]
Apr 3rd 2002, 8:36 am
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
"Tony Bailey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Chris Brady" <[email protected]> wrote in message > web sites. It appears that
> there is now no rail services at all south
> > of Christchurch such as to dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from
> > Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne, and none from Palmerston North to New
> > Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland to Rotorua seems to have been
> > stopped. What's going on? CJB.
>
> Tranz Rail sold off the passenger services and the only ones taken were -
>
> TranzAlpine TranzCoastal Auckland to Wellington - both day and night.
>
> The Southerner was subsidised locally for a few months on condition that patronage
> improved, which did not happen.
>
> What basically happened was that a rail service which had to pay all of
its
> costs could not compete with public highways where heavy vehicles are
still
> cross subsidised by private motorists.
>
Or more completely, where all road traffic is enormously subsidised by all taxpayers.
It's a classic example of Business Forum phony accounting, used to kill rail services
that are forced to account for capital, track and running costs, by pretending that
road vehicles for some reason are only required to pay running costs and a trivial
annual tax into the general revenue account. And so we destroy our countryside,
deplete our resources, and decieve ourselves.
Philip
news:[email protected]...
> "Chris Brady" <[email protected]> wrote in message > web sites. It appears that
> there is now no rail services at all south
> > of Christchurch such as to dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from
> > Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne, and none from Palmerston North to New
> > Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland to Rotorua seems to have been
> > stopped. What's going on? CJB.
>
> Tranz Rail sold off the passenger services and the only ones taken were -
>
> TranzAlpine TranzCoastal Auckland to Wellington - both day and night.
>
> The Southerner was subsidised locally for a few months on condition that patronage
> improved, which did not happen.
>
> What basically happened was that a rail service which had to pay all of
its
> costs could not compete with public highways where heavy vehicles are
still
> cross subsidised by private motorists.
>
Or more completely, where all road traffic is enormously subsidised by all taxpayers.
It's a classic example of Business Forum phony accounting, used to kill rail services
that are forced to account for capital, track and running costs, by pretending that
road vehicles for some reason are only required to pay running costs and a trivial
annual tax into the general revenue account. And so we destroy our countryside,
deplete our resources, and decieve ourselves.
Philip
Apr 3rd 2002, 9:05 am
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
On Wed, 3 Apr 2002 22:32:44 +0200, "Philip Crookes" <[email protected]> wrote:
>Or more completely, where all road traffic is enormously subsidised by all
>taxpayers.
And that's why over half of the tax on petrol (supposedly for roading purposes) goes
into the consolidated fund? Sorry Philip, I don't accept it.
>It's a classic example of Business Forum phony accounting, used to kill rail
>services that are forced to account for capital, track and running costs, by
>pretending that road vehicles for some reason are only required to pay running costs
>and a trivial annual tax into the general
^^^^^^^ :-P''''
>revenue account. And so we destroy our countryside, deplete our resources, and
>decieve ourselves.
^^^^^^^?
>Or more completely, where all road traffic is enormously subsidised by all
>taxpayers.
And that's why over half of the tax on petrol (supposedly for roading purposes) goes
into the consolidated fund? Sorry Philip, I don't accept it.
>It's a classic example of Business Forum phony accounting, used to kill rail
>services that are forced to account for capital, track and running costs, by
>pretending that road vehicles for some reason are only required to pay running costs
>and a trivial annual tax into the general
^^^^^^^ :-P''''
>revenue account. And so we destroy our countryside, deplete our resources, and
>decieve ourselves.
^^^^^^^?
Apr 3rd 2002, 10:09 am
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
Brian Harmer <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Philip Crookes wrote:
> > and decieve ourselves.
> ^^^^^^^?
!
news:[email protected]...
> Philip Crookes wrote:
> > and decieve ourselves.
> ^^^^^^^?
!
Apr 3rd 2002, 10:42 am
#7
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 127
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
We all like driving our cars but the true cost of the ridiculous level of use of the internal combustion engine is not simply the cost of roads. So to say that less than half of fuel tax goes to building roads and therefore motorists are funding other government spending is wholly inaccurate.
Cars are responsible for many hidden costs such as health costs, the costs of policing, pollution etc. etc.
The rail cuts in NZ are as a result of Tranz Rail moving out of passenger transport and therefore only the more profitable routes being taken up. The pro-road lobby in NZ is very strong no-one is prepared to rock the boat.
Given the current unsustainable use of oil and the lack of a credible alternative to petrol/diesel engines there may come a time when it becomes more economically viable to transport freight by rail and also commuters (especially in Wellington) may see the light and realise that it is much more convenient (and cheaper) to take the train. Most of them pass at least 1 station on the way to work anyway!!
Cars are responsible for many hidden costs such as health costs, the costs of policing, pollution etc. etc.
The rail cuts in NZ are as a result of Tranz Rail moving out of passenger transport and therefore only the more profitable routes being taken up. The pro-road lobby in NZ is very strong no-one is prepared to rock the boat.
Given the current unsustainable use of oil and the lack of a credible alternative to petrol/diesel engines there may come a time when it becomes more economically viable to transport freight by rail and also commuters (especially in Wellington) may see the light and realise that it is much more convenient (and cheaper) to take the train. Most of them pass at least 1 station on the way to work anyway!!
Apr 3rd 2002, 6:35 pm
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
Why should my taxes pay for a rail service that only tourists use?
Apr 3rd 2002, 7:05 pm
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
What ignorant rubbish. Rail uses diesel and any increase in electricity use will be
from fossil fuels as there are few additional hydro options. To give up cars for
public transport, we must give up suburban living and move into 20 storey apartment
buildings like Singapore or Hong Kong. Our places of work must also be fitted into
high density buildings
"lmaynard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> We all like driving our cars but the true cost of the ridiculous level of use of
> the internal combustion engine is not simply the cost of roads. So to say that less
> than half of fuel tax goes to building roads and therefore motorists are funding
> other government spending is wholly inaccurate.
>
> Cars are responsible for many hidden costs such as health costs, the costs of
> policing, pollution etc. etc.
>
> The rail cuts in NZ are as a result of Tranz Rail moving out of passenger transport
> and therefore only the more profitable routes being taken up. The pro-road lobby in
> NZ is very strong no-one is prepared to rock the boat.
>
> Given the current unsustainable use of oil and the lack of a credible alternative
> to petrol/diesel engines there may come a time when it becomes more economically
> viable to transport freight by rail and also commuters (especially in Wellington)
> may see the light and realise that it is much more convenient (and cheaper) to take
> the train. Most of them pass at least 1 station on the way to work anyway!!
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
from fossil fuels as there are few additional hydro options. To give up cars for
public transport, we must give up suburban living and move into 20 storey apartment
buildings like Singapore or Hong Kong. Our places of work must also be fitted into
high density buildings
"lmaynard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> We all like driving our cars but the true cost of the ridiculous level of use of
> the internal combustion engine is not simply the cost of roads. So to say that less
> than half of fuel tax goes to building roads and therefore motorists are funding
> other government spending is wholly inaccurate.
>
> Cars are responsible for many hidden costs such as health costs, the costs of
> policing, pollution etc. etc.
>
> The rail cuts in NZ are as a result of Tranz Rail moving out of passenger transport
> and therefore only the more profitable routes being taken up. The pro-road lobby in
> NZ is very strong no-one is prepared to rock the boat.
>
> Given the current unsustainable use of oil and the lack of a credible alternative
> to petrol/diesel engines there may come a time when it becomes more economically
> viable to transport freight by rail and also commuters (especially in Wellington)
> may see the light and realise that it is much more convenient (and cheaper) to take
> the train. Most of them pass at least 1 station on the way to work anyway!!
>
>
>
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
Apr 3rd 2002, 10:35 pm
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
On 3 Apr 2002 07:05:50 -0800, [email protected] (Chris Brady) wrote:
>We have been looking at the latest rail maps at Tranz Rail's various web sites. It
>appears that there is now no rail services at all south of Christchurch such as to
>dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne, and
>none from Palmerston North to New Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland to
>Rotorua seems to have been stopped. What's going on? CJB.
Regular Passenger service from Napier to Gisborne ended years ago but the withdrawl
of the Bayliner Wellington-Napier is more recent. It is of course all to do with
short-termist ideas that everything has to make a financial profit to be worth
maintaining. The worry is that the track will fall in to disrepair and freight
services will no longer be possible putting more trucks on to roads that can't safely
accommodate them like Napier-Gisborne. --==++AJC++==--
>We have been looking at the latest rail maps at Tranz Rail's various web sites. It
>appears that there is now no rail services at all south of Christchurch such as to
>dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne, and
>none from Palmerston North to New Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland to
>Rotorua seems to have been stopped. What's going on? CJB.
Regular Passenger service from Napier to Gisborne ended years ago but the withdrawl
of the Bayliner Wellington-Napier is more recent. It is of course all to do with
short-termist ideas that everything has to make a financial profit to be worth
maintaining. The worry is that the track will fall in to disrepair and freight
services will no longer be possible putting more trucks on to roads that can't safely
accommodate them like Napier-Gisborne. --==++AJC++==--
Apr 3rd 2002, 11:35 pm
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
In article <[email protected]>, "Neil Raines" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Why should my taxes pay for a rail service that only tourists use?
>
You will when the extra busloads of tourists run over your small minded head. Or your
kids get asthma from the diesel fumes. Maybe you should ask why your taxes should be
used to subsidise truck companies over rail companies.
Peter
--
Peter Ashby Wellcome Trust Biocentre University of Dundee, Scotland Reverse the Spam
and remove to email me.
> Why should my taxes pay for a rail service that only tourists use?
>
You will when the extra busloads of tourists run over your small minded head. Or your
kids get asthma from the diesel fumes. Maybe you should ask why your taxes should be
used to subsidise truck companies over rail companies.
Peter
--
Peter Ashby Wellcome Trust Biocentre University of Dundee, Scotland Reverse the Spam
and remove to email me.
Apr 4th 2002, 3:35 am
#12
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
Neil Raines <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Why should my taxes pay for a rail service that only tourists use?
>
Why inded? Why should your taxes payfor street lights in streets you'll never visit,
education and health services for people you don't know, police and defence services
that don't personally affect you, housing and health benefits for other people that
aren't members of your group, an immigration service you'll never use, roads you'll
never drive on....
'User pays' is a much over-rated concept.
Philip
> Why should my taxes pay for a rail service that only tourists use?
>
Why inded? Why should your taxes payfor street lights in streets you'll never visit,
education and health services for people you don't know, police and defence services
that don't personally affect you, housing and health benefits for other people that
aren't members of your group, an immigration service you'll never use, roads you'll
never drive on....
'User pays' is a much over-rated concept.
Philip
Apr 4th 2002, 7:13 am
#13
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 127
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
Originally posted by Neil Raines
What ignorant rubbish. Rail uses diesel and any increase in electricity use will be
from fossil fuels as there are few additional hydro options. To give up cars for
public transport, we must give up suburban living and move into 20 storey apartment
buildings like Singapore or Hong Kong. Our places of work must also be fitted into
high density buildings
What ignorant rubbish. Rail uses diesel and any increase in electricity use will be
from fossil fuels as there are few additional hydro options. To give up cars for
public transport, we must give up suburban living and move into 20 storey apartment
buildings like Singapore or Hong Kong. Our places of work must also be fitted into
high density buildings
Get you head out of the outdated view that cars are the only option if you live outside of the CBD. I use trains daily for commuting from the suburbs and they are cheaper, quicker and more reliable than driving into work of course my ego suffers because I have to travel with the plebs as I'm sure that's were you're coming from.
Apr 4th 2002, 8:36 am
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> On 3 Apr 2002 07:05:50 -0800, [email protected] (Chris Brady) wrote:
>
> >We have been looking at the latest rail maps at Tranz Rail's various web sites. It
> >appears that there is now no rail services at all south of Christchurch such as to
> >dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne,
> >and none from Palmerston North to New Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland
> >to Rotorua seems to have been stopped. What's going on? CJB.
>
>
> Regular Passenger service from Napier to Gisborne ended years ago but the withdrawl
> of the Bayliner Wellington-Napier is more recent. It is of course all to do with
> short-termist ideas that everything has to make a financial profit to be worth
> maintaining. The worry is that the track will fall in to disrepair and freight
> services will no longer be possible putting more trucks on to roads that can't
> safely accommodate them like Napier-Gisborne.
We are well on the way to repeating the experience of Guatemala, where the FEGUA rail
system ground to a halt in 1996. The (stat-owned) operating entity just walked away
from the mess they'd made of the system. There's a direct comparison to make between
FEGUA and the disaster that is TranzRail. Both were uninterested in the country,
unwilling to invest and ready to do only what made the most profit in the least time
to be exported out of the country as fast as could be managed.
Some national businesses, like railways, road-building, telecoms for starters are too
important to the well-being of the nation to be left up to corporations that must, by
law, put the interest of their shareholders ahead of anything else. The myth that the
market is the best way to decide what services should be offered dies hard - but it's
tottering on its feet.
It's nothing to do with capitalism vs state ownership - though we might ask why are
so many marketroids totally wedded to the idea of state-owned and taxpayer-subsidised
roads? It's much more to do with ,ong term investment and planning and social
responsibility.
Philip
(by the way, a Pittsburgh outfit called the Railroad Development Corporation took a
50 year lease of Guatemala's railroad and has since re-opened most of
it).
> On 3 Apr 2002 07:05:50 -0800, [email protected] (Chris Brady) wrote:
>
> >We have been looking at the latest rail maps at Tranz Rail's various web sites. It
> >appears that there is now no rail services at all south of Christchurch such as to
> >dunedin or Invercargill. There is none from Wellington to Napier and Gisbourne,
> >and none from Palmerston North to New Plymouth. Even the 'new' route from Auckland
> >to Rotorua seems to have been stopped. What's going on? CJB.
>
>
> Regular Passenger service from Napier to Gisborne ended years ago but the withdrawl
> of the Bayliner Wellington-Napier is more recent. It is of course all to do with
> short-termist ideas that everything has to make a financial profit to be worth
> maintaining. The worry is that the track will fall in to disrepair and freight
> services will no longer be possible putting more trucks on to roads that can't
> safely accommodate them like Napier-Gisborne.
We are well on the way to repeating the experience of Guatemala, where the FEGUA rail
system ground to a halt in 1996. The (stat-owned) operating entity just walked away
from the mess they'd made of the system. There's a direct comparison to make between
FEGUA and the disaster that is TranzRail. Both were uninterested in the country,
unwilling to invest and ready to do only what made the most profit in the least time
to be exported out of the country as fast as could be managed.
Some national businesses, like railways, road-building, telecoms for starters are too
important to the well-being of the nation to be left up to corporations that must, by
law, put the interest of their shareholders ahead of anything else. The myth that the
market is the best way to decide what services should be offered dies hard - but it's
tottering on its feet.
It's nothing to do with capitalism vs state ownership - though we might ask why are
so many marketroids totally wedded to the idea of state-owned and taxpayer-subsidised
roads? It's much more to do with ,ong term investment and planning and social
responsibility.
Philip
(by the way, a Pittsburgh outfit called the Railroad Development Corporation took a
50 year lease of Guatemala's railroad and has since re-opened most of
it).
Apr 4th 2002, 11:05 am
#15
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: Dramatically Depleted Rail Services in N.Z.
"Neil Raines" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> What ignorant rubbish. Rail uses diesel and any increase in electricity
use
> will be from fossil fuels as there are few additional hydro options. To
give
> up cars for public transport, we must give up suburban living and move
into
> 20 storey apartment buildings like Singapore or Hong Kong. Our places of work must
> also be fitted into high density buildings
Not necessarily. Public transport patronage depends more on service quality and
street layout than density.
Canadian cities have significantly more public transport patronage than US cities,
but have densities in the suburbs similar to Sydney or Melbourne.
The main reason Auckland has a very low public transport use (less than Australian
cities and less than US cities) is the poor level of service provided.
Peter
> What ignorant rubbish. Rail uses diesel and any increase in electricity
use
> will be from fossil fuels as there are few additional hydro options. To
give
> up cars for public transport, we must give up suburban living and move
into
> 20 storey apartment buildings like Singapore or Hong Kong. Our places of work must
> also be fitted into high density buildings
Not necessarily. Public transport patronage depends more on service quality and
street layout than density.
Canadian cities have significantly more public transport patronage than US cities,
but have densities in the suburbs similar to Sydney or Melbourne.
The main reason Auckland has a very low public transport use (less than Australian
cities and less than US cities) is the poor level of service provided.
Peter
