Raffi Balmanoukian

in article [email protected] , Jim Davis Sr.
at [email protected] wrote on 3/1/04 10:23 PM:

    > What I'm trying to say is that the "Estate", if any, that this guy has left
    > will probably not be sufficient for his surviving family to live on for the
    > rest of their lives. If the estate is sued, the innocent survivors will be
    > the ones to suffer. It's not their fault that he decided to take a header
    > off the bridge or building.
    >
    >


Agreed, but by the same token, it's not the airline or the pax's fault
either. He could have killed himself in a way that did not impact them. If
doing so in a way that impacts hundreds of others affects any surviving
family (and you're assuming there is one).....I feel for them but I can't
quite reach. Balancing the equities, the innocent pax/airline deserves any
resources over those of the alleged widows and orphans.

Papabear

Mutlley <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > a b c <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Mr Sims said the crew went to assist but the person was dead and
    >>they were "faced with a horrific scene".
    > Gee. What a precious lot. I guess they will need counseling on
    > some sunny beach for a month before they return to work.
    >
    > Talk about a pampered group of workers.

So what you're saying is that these people had someone jump off a
bridge, land on their car, and they are expected to just shrug this
off?!?!?

I commend Air NZ for taking their staff's welfare into account as well
as the welfare of their passengers.

PapaBear

John Ewing

"Raffi Balmanoukian" <[email protected] a>
wrote in message news:BC696E24.21516%

    > Balancing the equities, the innocent pax/airline deserves any
    > resources over those of the alleged widows and orphans.

That's real cute ... social equity obviously isn't factored into your
equation.

My son had an accident at the beach seven years ago which resulted in him
becoming a quadriplegic. One person did suggest we sue the beach patrol for
his misadventure. I am sure some lawyer would take on such a case, but most
certainly not on our behalf.

We all recognise it as just simple damn bad luck. Accidents do happen.

John

Budgie

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:01:21 GMT, "Jim Davis Sr." <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"budgie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 23:49:24 GMT, Raffi Balmanoukian
    >> <[email protected] a> wrote:
    >> I take it you haven't personally experienced a jumper.
    >I was in Buffalo, NY in the 70's. A guy jumped from the roof of City Hall.
    >What he didn't count on, was the 3rd or 4th floor balcony in front with a
    >flag pole. He was impaled half way down the pole for some time before the
    >fire dept. cut down the pole. I was stuck in traffic, while they cut him
    >down. I believe they closed down City Hall for the day.

with flags at half-mast? (ouch!! - sorry)

Budgie

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:27:19 GMT, Raffi Balmanoukian
<[email protected] a> wrote:

    >in article [email protected], budgie at
    >[email protected] wrote on 3/1/04 8:44 PM:
    >>> We all have stress from various sources at various times. Do we get to
    >>> knock off work (including in the airline industry) because we had a fight
    >>> with a spouse or the dog died or.....
    >>
    >> I take it you haven't personally experienced a jumper.
    >Does finding a horse's head in my bed count?

Nope, that's just a personal affront from an individual.

Trust me, the sight of a jumper going past - and of the splatter mess fifteen
floors below - is not easily forgotten. And that was thirty-odd years back.

Budgie

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:26:21 GMT, Raffi Balmanoukian
<[email protected] a> wrote:

    >in article %[email protected], Jim Davis Sr. at
    >[email protected] wrote on 3/1/04 9:09 PM:
    >>
    >> "Raffi Balmanoukian" <[email protected] a>
    >> wrote in message
    >> news:BC68DDEF.214AE%[email protected]...
    >>
    >>> As for suing....NZ should consider going after the estate of the deceased
    >>> for all of its damages, including the dent in the van 8-)
    >>
    >> Go after the Estate? Oh Gawd! The guy probably had nothing, or very
    >> little.
    >Not if he had insurance payable to his estate.

which in all probability had a suicide exception.

Terry Russell

"Raffi Balmanoukian" <[email protected] a>
wrote in message
news:BC696E24.21516%[email protected]...
    > in article [email protected] , Jim Davis
Sr.
    > at [email protected] wrote on 3/1/04 10:23 PM:
    > > What I'm trying to say is that the "Estate", if any, that this guy has
left
    > > will probably not be sufficient for his surviving family to live on for
the
    > > rest of their lives. If the estate is sued, the innocent survivors will
be
    > > the ones to suffer. It's not their fault that he decided to take a
header
    > > off the bridge or building.
    > >
    > >
    > Agreed, but by the same token, it's not the airline or the pax's fault
    > either. He could have killed himself in a way that did not impact them.
If
    > doing so in a way that impacts hundreds of others affects any surviving
    > family (and you're assuming there is one).....I feel for them but I can't
    > quite reach. Balancing the equities, the innocent pax/airline deserves
any
    > resources over those of the alleged widows and orphans.

Probably just wanted to leave on impression, make a splash, paint the town
red,
go out with a bang, and other insensitive remarks.
6 billion people, 100 billion reasons every day, their call,
pity about the bystanders.
If we distinguish only how they self-extinguish, and that only for our
convenience, how can we then expect they care to make it convenient for us?

There will be no resources, fairly easy to prove no responsibility due
to mental state, also likely no insurance for same reason. Then there
are things like disposal and cleanup costs. Sanitation gets high priority.

1.5% of deaths are suicides. Probablity of a suicide increased greatly
amonst those immediately associated. Suicides affect people far more
than accidents or natural causes.
Emergency services see this all the time but the differences is in
preparation and expectation. A rock that treated 5 heart-attacks and
3 car crashes today may fold when they find a pet budgie dead at home,
then have chicken for tea.

We don't know what other circumstances may have prompted the
management decision. Their call.
e.g. the odds of a similar recent event with an associate are not
insignificant

Mtravelkay

budgie wrote:

    > On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:27:19 GMT, Raffi Balmanoukian
    > <[email protected] a> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>in article [email protected], budgie at
    >>[email protected] wrote on 3/1/04 8:44 PM:
    >>>>We all have stress from various sources at various times. Do we get to
    >>>>knock off work (including in the airline industry) because we had a fight
    >>>>with a spouse or the dog died or.....
    >>>I take it you haven't personally experienced a jumper.
    >>Does finding a horse's head in my bed count?
    >
    >
    > Nope, that's just a personal affront from an individual.
    >
    > Trust me, the sight of a jumper going past - and of the splatter mess fifteen
    > floors below - is not easily forgotten. And that was thirty-odd years back.

15 years ago, while on a temp assignment in LA while working at IBM in
Austin. during the development of AIX/PS2 at Locus Software in the
Herbel Life building, I was staying at the Marriott LAX. One night a
bunch of us were coming back from dinner. In front of the hotel was a
body draped in a sheet. Apparently, someone jumped from the 14th floor,
presumably because there was no 13th floor.

Mr Scebe

"nobody" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
    > Roland Perry wrote:

    > For the crew, wouldn't it have been better to have *some* passengers which
    > would have helped take their mind off the trauma ? For instance, take 50%
of
    > the scheduled pax, and add a psychiatrist to talk to crew between the
service
    > and during crew rest periods.

Not at all. By having no passengers on-board it would have allowed the crew
to at least get some rest knowing that they could deal with matters in
privacy - they would have taken seats in First and Business Class, most
would have slept as much as possible. Having passengers on board - even a
few - would have meant that they couldn't just spread out and "go tropo" if
required.

Good on Air NZ in this instance. It's a far cry from how this would have
been handled even a few years ago.

--
Mr Scebe
Losers always whine about their 'best'.
Winners go home and **** the prom queen".
~Sean Connery in "The Rock"

Mr Scebe

"Raffi Balmanoukian" <[email protected] a>
wrote in message
news:BC681C7D.2147B%[email protected]...
    > in article [email protected], James Robinson at [email protected]
    > wrote on 2/29/04 10:34 PM:

    > > I bet the hold was filled with cargo. That revenue would offset some, if
    > > not all, of the cost.
    > not on that little notice.

Absolutely. There is always plenty of cargo going on these flights. There
would be standby items that would be put on depending on how much fuel was
required. It probably allowed them to clear some of the backlog.

--
Mr Scebe
Losers always whine about their 'best'.
Winners go home and **** the prom queen".
~Sean Connery in "The Rock"

Mr Scebe

"Alan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

    > Yeah, I can see it in the training manual now:
    > "Procedures to be Followed When a Human Body Falls from the Sky onto
    > Cabin Crew Transport.
    > 1. Remove body.
    > 2. Clean windscreen thoroughly before proceeding.
    > 3 ...."

4. Check appearance.

--
Mr Scebe
Losers always whine about their 'best'.
Winners go home and **** the prom queen".
~Sean Connery in "The Rock"

Hilary

    > >> Fine - the point remains, people "get upset" about all kinds of things,
    > > all
    > >> the time. If the airline is going to cancel flights over it - on safety,
    > >> humanitarian, or karmic grounds - they should ensure enough redundancy to
    > >> cover these out-of-the-blue contingencies (unlike weather or mechanical).
    > >
    > > No Transportation Company can have a plan for everything. That was a 1 in a
    > > million shot. People who were inconvenienced by this just have to shake it
    > > off, and go on with their lives. I've been delayed hundreds of times, for
    > > hundreds of reasons. It happens. That's life.
    >
    > Exactly my point, my friend. People expect, and make allowances for, and
    > forgive, the delays inherent in air travel due to the vagaries of the method
    > - mechanical delays, weather delays, etc. This is especially true when the
    > airline is up front about it (e.g. how often have we shrugged off "flight
    > canceled" and how often have we been ticked when there are a series of six
    > consecutive "one hour" delays?).
    >
    > If, conversely, the airline is going to cancel a flight because of a
    > particular policy ("we won't make you fly because you had a close
    > encounter"), it is incumbent upon the airline to make it right by its pax.
    >
    > We all have stress from various sources at various times. Do we get to
    > knock off work (including in the airline industry) because we had a fight
    > with a spouse or the dog died or.....

If it makes you unable to do your job and potentially putting you or
others in a dangerous situation, then yes.

Hilary

Collectornz

Terry Russell wrote:

    >"Raffi Balmanoukian" <[email protected] a>
    >wrote in message
    >news:BC696E24.21516%[email protected]...
    >
    >>in article [email protected] , Jim Davis
    >>
    >Sr.
    >
    >>at [email protected] wrote on 3/1/04 10:23 PM:
    >>
    >>>What I'm trying to say is that the "Estate", if any, that this guy has
    >>>
    >left
    >
    >>>will probably not be sufficient for his surviving family to live on for
    >>>
    >the
    >
    >>>rest of their lives. If the estate is sued, the innocent survivors will
    >>>
    >be
    >
    >>>the ones to suffer. It's not their fault that he decided to take a
    >>>
    >header
    >
    >>>off the bridge or building.
    >>>
    >>Agreed, but by the same token, it's not the airline or the pax's fault
    >>either. He could have killed himself in a way that did not impact them.
    >>
    >If
    >
    >>doing so in a way that impacts hundreds of others affects any surviving
    >>family (and you're assuming there is one).....I feel for them but I can't
    >>quite reach. Balancing the equities, the innocent pax/airline deserves
    >>
    >any
    >
    >>resources over those of the alleged widows and orphans.
    >>
    >Probably just wanted to leave on impression, make a splash, paint the town
    >red,
    >go out with a bang, and other insensitive remarks.
    >6 billion people, 100 billion reasons every day, their call,
    >pity about the bystanders.
    >If we distinguish only how they self-extinguish, and that only for our
    >convenience, how can we then expect they care to make it convenient for us?
    >There will be no resources, fairly easy to prove no responsibility due
    >to mental state, also likely no insurance for same reason. Then there
    >are things like disposal and cleanup costs. Sanitation gets high priority.
    >1.5% of deaths are suicides. Probablity of a suicide increased greatly
    >amonst those immediately associated. Suicides affect people far more
    >than accidents or natural causes.
    >Emergency services see this all the time but the differences is in
    >preparation and expectation. A rock that treated 5 heart-attacks and
    >3 car crashes today may fold when they find a pet budgie dead at home,
    >then have chicken for tea.
    >We don't know what other circumstances may have prompted the
    >management decision. Their call.
    >e.g. the odds of a similar recent event with an associate are not
    >insignificant
    >
Just how many people jump of Motorway Bridges in LA

Try finding the figures

Matt Weber

On Mon, 01 Mar 2004 11:50:43 GMT, [email protected] (Miguel Cruz) wrote:

    >Max Burke <mlvburke@%$%#@.nz> wrote:
    >> Some of the crew were prepared to work the flight, but it was Air NZ
    >> management that sent them all home on an empty plane... Sending the
    >> aircraft back to NZ empty would have cost Air NZ a lot more that just the
    >> crew's wages they paid out...
    >Here's what I don't understand - wouldn't it have been cheaper to pay for a
    >parking spot for 14 hours and fly a new crew out? The traumatized crew could
    >head home on Qantas.

It is complex, but if they had to fly a crew in, the delay would
probably have been 24 hours or more, meanwhile, you do have the
aircraft slated to go somewhere else from Auckland. In terms of
revenue, it may be better to send the aircraft home empty and just pay
for one planeload of displaced passengers instead of two.

Basicallly while deadhead don't count as time on duty, they don't
count as time off duty either, so if the dead head is very long, you
run into rest time issues. I doubt it would have been legal for a crew
to spend 14 hours dead heading in, and then fly back out on a 12 hour
mission.

Collectornz

mtravelkay wrote:

    > budgie wrote:
    >> On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 01:27:19 GMT, Raffi Balmanoukian
    >> <[email protected] a> wrote:
    >>> in article [email protected], budgie at
    >>> [email protected] wrote on 3/1/04 8:44 PM:
    >>>>> We all have stress from various sources at various times. Do we
    >>>>> get to
    >>>>> knock off work (including in the airline industry) because we had
    >>>>> a fight
    >>>>> with a spouse or the dog died or.....
    >>>> I take it you haven't personally experienced a jumper.
    >>> Does finding a horse's head in my bed count?
    >> Nope, that's just a personal affront from an individual.
    >> Trust me, the sight of a jumper going past - and of the splatter mess
    >> fifteen
    >> floors below - is not easily forgotten. And that was thirty-odd
    >> years back.
    > 15 years ago, while on a temp assignment in LA while working at IBM in
    > Austin. during the development of AIX/PS2 at Locus Software in the
    > Herbel Life building, I was staying at the Marriott LAX. One night a
    > bunch of us were coming back from dinner. In front of the hotel was a
    > body draped in a sheet. Apparently, someone jumped from the 14th
    > floor, presumably because there was no 13th floor.
While I can not point to figures!
LA is suicde heaven for motorway bridge jumpers.

But what happened to the good old Kiwi attitude that dealt with these
sort of things