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They told you right. Comment removed due to Rule 2

SgtTroy

But of course, no need to leave your passport details at the hotel/b&b, no need for NIF if you decide to rent, just take £10,000 cash or so to exchane them, so that you don't leave any traces of your presence in Portugal if you use your cards, and it will be all fine, SEF would love it...
Portugal wouldn't know anything - as if passports are not scanned at the airport for non-Schengen arrivals and departures...

One simply can't stay over few weeks and remain under the radar, especially for third country nationals - there will be multiple traces left, one's only hope is that noone would bother to follow them.

yevlondon

lol. hope you feel better now after this rant.

TonyJ1

This only applies if the 'other' country validly taxes. If there is a double tax treaty, usually the taxing rights is for the country of residence - the country of source usually only has the right to tax if the 'employee' works in the other country for 183 or more days, the company is a resident of the other country and the costs are not charged to a Portuguese company / business (even indirectly). In this case, if the employee is working in the UK, then effectively he/she is not a Portuguese resident - though the tax record should be altered to reflect the correct position.

Usually the problem is that the employee works from Portugal and not in the other country for this rule to apply in the nhr provisions - in other words, the income is taxable in Portugal.
For for this rule to apply, the Portuguese resident employee would be resident in the UK, which effectively makes this provision a 'nonsense'. This provision works for example in the case of engineers working in some offshore locations where there is no double tax treaty between Portugal and such countries.

TonyJ1

You can get your tax record 'fixed' the rejection letter should have advised what needed to be done.

yevlondon

i think you are overcomplicating it. NHR rules say that if income is foreign and taxed in the other country, it is not taxed in Portugal. by UK rules you can be still considered UK tax resident even if you spend less than 183 days in UK (there are several tests, not just two as in Portugal i.e. 183 days or 31 december rule). so it is may well be that in UK eyes you are UK tax payer (e.g. UK employer, spend more than 91 day in UK per year) but in Portuguese eyes you are Portuguese tax payer (more than 183 days in PT). for UK you are "ok" as you keep paying taxes there. for Portugal you are "ok" because you are on NHR and pay taxes in UK. that is my position. but of course everyone needs to do their own research and satisfy themselves with what they do.

TonyJ1

I am not over complicating - you need to also see the residence article of the double tax treaty - it maybe that you continue to have your centre of vital interests in the UK - then the UK validly taxes you, and in that case you are not a Portuguese tax resident. The issue is that once you have declared to the Portuguese tax authority (if you do so) that you are a tax resident, the Portuguese tax authority will consider you to be resident - end of story.
You need to be tax resident to apply for the nhr status - so here starts the conundrum - you have declared to be tax resident in PT (to get the NHR), yet you are of the opinion that the UK has the right to tax you in terms of the internal UK laws (DTA supersedes internal law in most countries legal systems - US being an exception). Not as straight forward as you may think.
If you are tax resident in Portugal (due to your declaration - if you do so) - and remember that under internal laws, one day is enough (though income can be reported for the effective residence rather than the whole year), than the 20% (presuming a high value added occupation as defined) will be charged - unless you spend more than 183 days in the UK - in which case you are a non resident, and then you should notify the tax authority of your change of address / circumstances. In any event then we are going around in circles. The nhr exemption (article 81-4 a) only applies if the other country taxes such income in terms of the rules of the double tax treaty.
The nhr rule for taxpayers not covered by a double tax treaty is in 81 4 b) and in that case a lot simpler - but this is not the rule with the UK as there is a double tax treaty.

yevlondon

agree to disagree i guess. looks like in taxes there are as many opinions as tax advisors. and yes i read the double taxation treaty.

i sought professional advice and my position was confirmed. you have a different view. i think it is quite unlikely that if i report my foreign income and show tax paid abroad that PT tax authorities will dispute that and say UK had no right to those taxes. are you aware of any precedents when this happened?

TonyJ1

Short answer - yes

yevlondon

noted, i guess i ll take my chances

RunBoyRun

Thanks all, though for me the tax implications (initially at least) are moot, as I'll be staying for less than 183 days total.

However, on the VISA side of things, I received this from the Portuguese Consulate in London:

(1) Re VISA ------------------------------------

... And on the SOCIAL SECURITY side of things, this from "an expert" in the British Chamber of Commerce in Portugal:

(2) Re SOCIAL SECURITY ------------------------------------

... so these two items seem fairly straightforward. I have no idea how likely it is to successfully obtain a Family Reunification visa from the SEF within a 3 month period (any ideas?), but it's certainly something I'd start on 'day 1' on arriving there. I'll be checking the SEF website and maybe writing to them as well. And the social security side is simple - just take out a long-stay travel insurance policy for the 6 month period.

My biggest concern now is whatever roadblocks my wife's work can come up with - and that will only become clear when her conversations with them get more serious, soon.

sternchen

I am happy to be corrected, but... in order to get a residence card for family members of EU nationals, the EU national (OP's spouse) has to exercise EU treaty rights in the host country (Portugal) = being employed in the host country, being self employed in the host country, being a full time student or self-sufficient with private comprehensive sickness insurance.

I know that some EU countries check for this more thoroughly than others but would working for a UK company remotely without paying into any of the Portuguese systems qualify as exercising EU treaty rights?

Has anyone sponsored a non-EEA spouse under freedom of movement, lately?

DaveLovesDee

Self-sufficient includes income from employment / pensions / etc from abroad. https://www.expatica.com/pt/moving/v...u-efta-936493/

You may need to check how much is regarded as sufficient income for this.

suiko

They gavce no reason in the lettetr, just that it was "nao diferido". I have queried it againby email though, and they saiy it is "under study".

Do you think I'm likely to have issues with working (online) in the UK while here ? Obviously the tax will be paid in UK, but how about here? And does this change according to whether I get NHR or not?

TonyJ1

If you are resident you are taxed on a worldwide income basis. If you work remotely from Portugal, Portugal has the right to tax rather than the UK - I suggest you read carefully article 15 of the Portugal / UK double tax treaty.

I suspect the não deferido is because your address at the tax authority is still the UK, rather than your residence - you are supposed to keep the tax authority informed of any address changes (same in the UK, and other countries). I am sure the letter will list the reason why it was rejected - you just need to know how to interpret these letters.