GeniB

Dog mess used to drive me mad in the Netherlands ,so it's not just Lisbon. Cities everywhere can have a problem if no one takes action.. My friend did in NL importing 'doggie bags' from the USA and presenting them to the Gemeente. They ignored her (of course) but a few yrs later provided their own.. Guess who was the first person to be fined for not picking up.. Yep my friend. She had picked up,but was reported by a neighbour... hmmmm. Be careful what you say as a foreigner lol...I always look up now..

liveaboard

I've just made my appointment for SEF Portimao; according to the website, I don't need pictures for that office as they have their own machine.
I know the machine is in there, but I don't believe it so I'll have photos with me.
The appointment page on their website doesn't seem to work for me; I had to book by phone.
I'll keep you all informed.

Ukkram

If you are a member of an EU country then why do you have to go to SEF for a renewal?
I got my 5 year residencia from the local Camara office.
My wife had to go the SEF route as she is not a member.

Red Eric

'Cos it's the rools, innit?

mfesharne

Assuming the applicant has a passport from an EU country that gives them right of residency the first application is from the local Camara & is for 5 years and the 2nd is from SEF & usually for 10 years.

It could be argued that right to reside means just that and that no permit should be required but you won't get anywhere with that argument any more than you will arguing about firearms laws with the PSP.


As Eric says, "It's the rools innit" - Welcome to the Portuguese bureaucratic process. lol

Red Eric

The first document is a registration document, rather than a permit. You can't, as an EU citizen, be slung out for not having one but you can be fined (although nobody, ever, on any forum I read, has been or knows anyone who has been, nor have I ever heard, seen or read of it elsewhere in the news). It's a different document to the non-EU permit which is required and which one can be deported for not having. It may be that changes to eg registering for state health care or getting a tax id number make it much harder to not do the initial registration now than previously.

With regard to the obtaining of the permanent resident card for EU nationals, I was told by SEF when I applied that it is not obligatory to have one and that no action can be taken if you don't. Being a slightly mistrusting soul, I've checked through the relevant legislation myself - and indeed have found no mention of sanctions of any sort for not re-registering with SEF. That said, though, I feel much more comfortable with the document and find it's much handier (and cheaper to replace if lost or stolen!!) as id, so will continue to renew when necessary.

mfesharne

I agree it's better to follow the rules & that's what we'll be doing later this year but it's bloody typical of PT bureaucracy that there's not a penalty for breaking the rules!

As Homer Simpson would say: DOH! lol

ah207

yes - after the first 5 years are up (and you are an EU citizen wishing to continue living in Portugal), you cannot renew your first EU certificate - you have to apply for the residency card. Hence SEF. Since I work in Portugal, plus own a house, drive a car etc, I don't wish to carry my passport everywhere all the time - so a residency card which functions as proof of ID and address is much easier. Just a pity they give you such a run-around to get one! All for the sake of 15 Euros!

liveaboard

I live in Portugal; it's a hassle sometimes, but generally I prefer to play by the rules.
I have Portuguese health insurance, a Portuguese car, a Portuguese driving license, and I pay Portuguese taxes.

If you want to fight the system, I applaud you and wish you the best of luck!

Red Eric

Well, as I said, it appears to be more of an option than a rule with regard to the permanent resident card.

I'm not against registration - either the initial one or the permanent. In fact, I think it's a good idea from the point of view of keeping stats etc (provided everybody complies, of course) but I do wonder what the purpose is.

It can't be to have accurate figures of who's in the country, seeing as there isn't a process for un-registering if one departs. Furthermore, unless one arrives and departs by air, there's no record of the arrival / departure on each occasion. I could leave by road or by rail or by sea or by river crossing and nobody'd be any the wiser but the record of my registration would still be live. And as they don't seem all that bothered about chasing up people who don't comply, the records can't really be relied upon to accurately reflect who's here.

So what is the purpose?

liveaboard

For me the purpose is to avoid legal trouble with tax residency, driving, health issues, and whatever else pops up.
I think the health insurance alone makes it worthwhile; even though I have private cover, it's limited. the public cover is not, and I get deep discounts on prescription medications [even when prescribed by private doctors].
I know a lot of people with health worries; how to pay for care is one worry extra that I'd like to avoid if possible. I have friends who have died because they were uninsured, others who had to flee 'home' even though it was no longer their home.

I have plenty of friends and neighbors who don't bother; Germans especially seem to like pretending that they still live in the Fatherland. Some Brits I know are still driving UK reg cars, even after all the warnings and hoopla.
I know a French guy, lives way up in the hills, not registered anywhere.

To each his own I say.

ah207

Agreed - I too am registered here in the health service (and have used it!), plus I have been paying tax and national insurance etc. So its no big deal to carry the residency/ID card. But - if and when I do leave Portugal - as Red Eric says, there is no formal de-registration procedure in SEF. I will just need to make sure I take my P45 equivalent form/tax return forms back with me to show the tax man in the UK. After 6 months working back in the UK, I'll be fully resident there again. I am extremely unlikely to return to Portugal - except on holiday, or maybe after retirement!

Red Eric

I'm not just being argumentative for the sake of it - honest but...

I know what you're saying and I half agree with it because that's the sort of lines I think along. IF anybody ever asks to see the document for any reason, or if the law suddenly changes to require it, I've got it.

However, that document isn't necessary in order to do a tax return, or to drive (or even to register or exchange your licence). In fact, I was accepted into the state health service without first registering as resident (this was some time ago, though) and I've never had to show the registration document or the permanent resident card to anyone for any reason. It's only used if I choose to use it as an alternative form of id. So it doesn't appear to serve any particularly useful purpose to the authorities even if it is more convenient for me.

This is just an "I wonder why?" kind of thing, rather than anything of any major importance. I wasn't thinking of the kind of people who don't fulfil any of their obligations - that really is asking for trouble, in my opinion. But it is (or was?) possible to do most of the legally required stuff without the residency registration.

nogard

Liveaboard, Having exchanged your UK license, does you Pt license restrict you to cat. B only, i.e. you can only drive a car and as such are not allowed to tow a trailer?

AliceCaroline

ah207: The document attesting that you have no criminal record, do you know if this covers just the time you have been living in Portugal or for all your life?
I hadn't really thought about it before but my husband some misdemeanours from when he was a lad (he grew up in a rough town).
Does anyone know how I can find out if this will affect his residency application? 

We are still in the UK, hoping to move over next year.