My wife is Brazilian, I am British.

We've recently arrived in Portugal, I am registered with the locality as resident, we have fiscal numbers, we have bank accounts and so on. We have tried to start my wife's official residency procedure at SEF today

We have everything required. Marriage certificate, all our passports, my registration of residency and so on.

Today, the guy said we could not proceed because our marriage certificate is from Brazil, and is more than 6 months old (4 years). He says we need to get it stamped by the Brazilian embassy in Lisbon and then submit it to him within 10 days. But they will not stamp it, because they did not issue it, so they say it has to be stamped in Brazil and then they can stamp it.

When I asked SEF why, the guy said that we might not still be married, so we need this to prove we are *still* married.

This is bullshit. How is getting our marriage cert stamped in Brazil proof that we are still married? We've been in the UAE since getting married, not in Brazil. Brazil has no idea if we're still married, in fact they have no idea if I am alive or dead. And why six months? We could have got divorced 3 months ago for all they know. And if we got this and get her residency, are they going to come along in 6 months time and request that we prove we are still married by getting the certificate stamped (in Brazil) again?

We've offered to sign a declaration at the Brazil embassy, under threat of perjury, that we are still married, but SEF say this is not enough.

So, we have a marriage certificate from 4 years ago. We have 2 children (1 and 3 years old) who are with us here in Portugal. We live at the same address, and have come from a country where cohabiting is illegal. And they want us to send our marriage certificate to Brazil to get some stamp to say we're still married?

Basically these guys have given us 10 days to get a document which we cannot possibly get in 10 days and they know it.

The bureaucracy here just seems to be crushing and inflexible. You'd think with the basket case economy they'd appreciate some people coming in with a bit of money to spend, but although it's been easy for me they've made life for my wife miserable. We were planning on buying a house here and bringing up our kids here, but we're rapidly forming the opinion that they really don't want foreigners here (well, Brazilians anyway). I hope I am wrong, because I really love it here, and the people we've met (outside of officialdom) have been lovely.

Have a look at all the fun WE had! And we're both EU citizens! http://www.movingtoportugal.org/2011...y-in-portugal/

I’m afraid demanding something impossible is a standard opening gambit. I came here from a non-EU country so I had to go through a lot of bureaucracy to bring my belongings in.

One of the first demands was a letter from the British Embassy certifying that I had lived in that country for at least three years. Obviously the Embassy was not going to commit itself on this unknown citizen’s movements. Eventually I got my workplace to put together an impressive document with lots of stamps and signatures, and this was accepted instead.

After many visits to the Embassy I really thought I’d got everything sorted out. Then the man who was dealing with things played his final card: he picked up the inventories of other people who were going through the same process and leafed through their many pages. Then he picked up mine with evident distaste at its thinness. I was sent away to ‘fatten’ my inventory of goods by widening margins, increasing font size, listing the name of every book instead of putting ‘approx 100 books’ etc.

He gave me his card: he had a PhD from Coimbra university.

Sorry I can’t help with your specific problem. In general calm and persistence are the only weapons you have.

I would think that in any EU country a marriage certificate four years old would not work in this circumstance: residency and nationality issues.

Honestly with the going divorce rate I would venture half of the marriage certificates that old are invalid now. If you were married in Brasil, only Brasil will be able to testify you are still married.

Bureaucratic BS seems to vary from area to area and you might consider trying again in a different area or perhaps look into whether things might change if you and your wife go through another marriage ceremony in the UK or elsewhere.

What you need is an "apostille" from the Brazilian consulate attesting to the legitimacy of your marriage certificate. If they refuse to issue one, ask them for a letter saying that.
It worked for me.

Go Back to SEF, take the whole family along.
Explain the situation with patience and [if you can muster it] humility.

Really, they're only concerned with 'false' marriages, of which there are many they told me.

Bring along any supporting documents that will show you both had the same address at the same time, the more the merrier. Joint bank accounts are very good.

If the officer is convinced, he'll likely ease off on the document requirement.

They may be living together and theoretically being divorced.

If the Brasil embassy has the means to contact the registry of the place where the marriage occurred to check out if it is still valid...that would be nice

I was at the SEF office with my wife. I don't think there is any suggestion or possibly reason to consider it is a scam marriage. We're both similar age, she clearly speaks good English (which is handy, because my portuguese is not up to much). It's not like we're an odd couple who can hardly communicate with each other.

She's got residence stamps in her passport to show she's been living in the UAE for the past 4 years - as have I (pretty impressive background for this scam wedding, no?)

We've got two kids, aged 1 and 3. We've certainly pushed the boat out on this scam marriage, knocking out not just one, but two kids to make it look genuine.

When I questioned why a marriage certificate was not sufficient proof of marriage, he said that we might be divorced.

I suppose it's possible we might have divorced. But quite why we'd do that, and then both move together to Portugal with our two kids, live at the same address and try to get her residency (which would require us to be married).... he didn't really have an answer for that.

No.

We have never LIVED in Brazil. We got married there 4 years ago, and then lived in the UAE for the last 4 years.

We could have got a divorce in the UAE, or indeed in Britain (because I am still 'domiciled' there even while living in the UAE).

How do you think Brazil will know about this? Magic?

They have no idea whether we are married or not, they only know whether or not we've got divorced in Brazil.

Asking for us to stamp our wedding certificate again in Brazil is pointless, it proves nothing. They should get us to affirm under threat of perjury that we are still married and issue residency on that basis.

When we got married in Brazil, they required that I get a certificate from the UK authorities to say I was single. We explained there is no such thing, the UK authorities have no idea as I could have gone to any country in the world and got married and they'd not know. The UK said the best they could do was for me to simply declare I was single in front of the VC at the Embassy in Dubai, and have them stamp as having witnessed that. Brazil was fine with that, and accepted it as proof of being single. The portuguese still don't seem to understand it's a big world out there, and citizen's home countries have no idea what they get up to when living overseas.

I would assume that if you married in Brasil, the marriage is registered there, no?

Who is the issuer of the marriage certificate you have now? Whoever he is, he would be the one to ask for an updated document, right?

You still don't seem to get it.

Yes, we can (and will) get a certificate from Brazil's registrar, with a newer date. And then Mr SEF will be happy because he has his stupid document, and we'll be happy but slightly less rich because my wife can get her residency.

But does it prove we're married? No. So it does not serve the purpose of why they claim to request it.

As I said, the registrar only knows that we were married there 4 years ago (like our certificate says). He has no idea whatsoever what we've done since, whether we've got divorced in the UAE, the UK or anywhere else.

So as proof we're still married, it is utterly pointless.

They'd be far better off getting us to affirm, under threat of perjury, that we are still married.

Again, if Brazil issues you a new certificate, and if they work as the rest of civilized world (and I am sure they do) they will issue an updated certificate of your marriage certificate not exactly the same document you have now.

If they issue a new document stamped with the new date they will be implying that you are still married. They will stamp a new date on it...at least that´s the way it works here. That is what matters to Mr SEF in there. If you are dead or not, does not mater to Brazil as the widow keeps her rights.

By now I can confidently say that you did not understand that certain documents such as ownership certificates and marriage certificates are dynamic entities that will grow in information content as events pass (or not).

For instance I have an ownership certificate of my house I got 10 years ago. Meanwhile I sold my house. That certificate (that I still keep) can be used to fraudulently claim ownership over a property I sold years ago. If I were to fraudulently sell that house the buyer would ask an updated version of the owner certificate (voilá!) , and there would appear a new entry stating I sold the house in which date.

If along the line, you got legally divorced, a new entry in your marriage certificate will be added with that information, and what you have is now a divorce certificate...

I Know SEF is buorocratic and all (and I have seen that and the contrary) but I am sure that in no country of the EU you could ask for a residency or whatever with a 4 years old marriage certificate.

Why would SEF guy believe you are still married? Because you are saying so? Because your eyes stand out as beautiful?

Moreover if you are in a position where you can´t prove you are still married, I would venture your are in big trouble ... and you are the one to solve that without asking the SEF guy to be complacent and bypass the rules...

I had to supply a certificate that says my embassy doesn't issue that certificate; and each applicant has to get a new, recently dated certificate for each of their applications... so the embassy keeps printing, signing, and embossing them, and the Portuguese authority keeps filing them.

Welcome to Portugal!

We have been residents here for just over a year now. We are UK citizens. We have found that the only way to get through the steps involved in doing anything is by being patient and finding anyway possible to get the pieces of paper needed. One of the things I have found is that the same hoops are given to all. It seems at least that the bureaucracy is applied fairly. It is difficult for everyone, as all the boxes have to be ticked. You just have to find your way through and get the pieces of paper or find something that satisfies people. Being polite, but insistent helps, we have found. I helped people doing the same when I worked in public service in England, where often things are just as bad or worse. At least here, you get to speak to a real person, not a machine on the phone! Good luck with it all. I hope you get through. It's been a journey of discovery for us and we have learnt a lot about the different offices, importing our car, signing on as self employed, getting our health issues sorted out etc...and learnt a lot of Portugese along the way! But this is a wonderful country and we are enjoying being here hugely, so it's all worth it!

Hmm, we recently renewed our residency when the 5 year one expired and it was simplicity itself. In and out in 5 minutes and the new card was ready 2 days later. Perhaps the Tavira office is less bureaucratic than others.