AS a PT resident under withdrawal agreement. I f I wqas in the UK and decided to travel to an EU country, but not Portugal, would I need to have a new document or be registered within the EES system by virtue of the fact that I would have a Brexit PT ID?

I wrote to the EU on this very subject a while ago and unless something has changed in the meantime, EU nationals and EU residents will not be subject to the new EES or ETIAS systems, they are only applicable to non resident, third country nationals.

The exact details of how it will work at borders is not entirely clear. There will be a separate lane for third country nationals who will go through e gates (which will automatically calculate their Schengen allowance) and obviously EU nationals will skip the EES/ETIAS process completely but I'm not sure how it will work for third country EU residents. It's possible they will have to be checked manually.

The problem as I see it at the moment is that I would be using a British Passport, I would need to go through the non EU nationals gate..

Passport scans and €7 fee: What will change for EU travel in 2023

This would be applicable regardless of which external border you are entering through.

thnks Eric.
So how would this apply if for example, as a PT resident with post Brexit PT residency card, I catch a plane from a UK airport to fly to say Canary Islands?
I can see that I should not go through egates, but would my PT residency card negate the need for an EES document?

All info is at https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/wh...borders/ees_en.

Basically, anyone with any kind of European issued residency card will use manual border kiosk.
Over time, process might improve and streamline.

Manual kiosk will be initially very busy, as anyone with problems with bio collection machine will be sent there.

My partner is still British and has travelled from the UK to Malaga with the paper version of the Portuguese residency certificate and has gone to the manual booth each time. They have had their passport stamped a few times but once the new residency cards are introduced, this should not happen and as an EU resident, you are definitely not subject to the new EES/ETIAS system. If you do get stamped, it's invalid because you are resident in an EU state.

I was under the impression (maybe wrongly) that even as a pre Brexit resident of PT, but nevertheless a British citizen (ie Passport holder), I could not remain in another Schengen country for more than 90 days? If that is the case, and no entry date is given, how would they know how long I had been in the other country?

You would normally be required to complete some residence formalities if staying beyond the 90 days as an EU citizen but couldn't be obliged to do so beforehand, is the actual gist of things.

As to how they know how long other EU citizens have been in their territory, they don't. And they don't bother in the least about it. However, although you could "get away with" residing in another member state, possibly indefinitely, without detection, there are things you couldn't do which might make life a bit awkward for you, not to mention that you'd be breaking various obligations on which you could be apprehended and sanctioned. But the long holiday devotees can pretty much please themselves on length of stay without too much fear of being bothered unless they're committing some other offence..

When it comes to Schengen-resident 3rd country nationals, there's a similar amount of trust imbued in them. They have obligations in their country of residence but their comings and goings to other member states aren't habitually recorded and they have no status elsewhere except that of a visitor. They may, as has been pointed out on here previously, be required to report their presence to the national authorities within a certain period if they cross an unmonitored border.

Freedom of movement trumps everything and the EU's number one priority is to look after its members and ensure they can move around the EU freely.

​​​​​​St rictly speaking, EU nationals are supposed to register after 90 days in another EU state but nobody ever does and it's completely unenforceable. It is probably a legacy law from before the days of Schengen but I doubt anyone really cares. So now you (British) have left the EU and lost EU freedom of movement, you will be checked in and out of Schengen via EES unless you are resident in an EU state.

To summarise, EU nationals have full freedom of movement and their movements are not tracked by EES or any other mechanism. Technically, UK nationals resident in EU states do not have EU freedom of movement but they are able to move around freely by virtue of the fact their movements are not monitored within Schengen, so it's FoM by default. So just like the other scenario mentioned above, it's unenforceable.

Bit of a sweeping statement, presumably having in mind only those people who exceed the limit as tourists.

Many other people do register, of course, even if their stays are time limited but exceed the 90 days. And they need to, in order to exercise their full FoM rights, which extend beyond the basic (and conditional) permission to reside beyond that period.

Perhaps. I was referring to tourists who stay for more than 90 days and often do six months at a time. There might be some who register but I certainly don't know of any who have. It's mostly Dutch, Belgian and German nationals since Brexit.

It's not a legacy law.
FOM dates back to 1964 and EU citizens exercising their FOM rights had to register with the national authorities in accordance with the national law they were exercising their rights it (most required registration within 3 days).
The original Schengen area dates from 1968 and national law registration still applied.
The requirement for EU citizens to register their presence under FOM was changed to 90 days 1973 by Directive 73/148 EEC, this Directive trumped the national laws that required registration before 90 days.
The current Schengen area (expanded from the original) came into being in 1995 and current FOM Directive dates from 2004, the 90 day registration requirement was retained.
Ergo the requirement for an EU citizen to register their presence is nothing to do with Schengen and everything to do with FOM.

As you say, no-one probably cares, but it's not the first time you've suggested the 90 day registration was a left-over from pre Schengen days so I thought it appropriate to point out it isn't so that members reading these posts realise that it is in fact enforceable if the authorities decide to enforce it.

That's all very interesting but I still didn't know anybody of any nationality who registers as a tourist when they stay more than 90 days and then trots off and to wherever to unregister themselves when they leave. As far as I know, there is only one precedent in Portugal where an EU national (tourist) was forced to become resident.

Any ideas why no EU states rigorously enforce this supposed rule for EU nationals? I'm sure they could if they really wanted to. It certainly sounds like the British pressure group who are trying to change the 90/180 day rule so that they can resume their six month winter stints are on a hiding to nothing.

Obviously for UK nationals it's a very different story and of course it's virtually impossible to overstay in the Schengen zone with being penalised. It will be even more difficult once EES/ETIAS are introduced next year.

From the perspective of the EU legislation, there is no obligation on member states to make registration compulsory. The 2 chief stipulations with regard to registration are 1) that it cannot be required of EU nationals within 90 days and 2) that there must be a process for issuing a certificate of residence to those who request it (provided that they satisfy the FoM criteria).

So it's national law which determines whether it is or isn't compulsory, and national provisions which determine whether and how it is enforced if it is obligatory.

Clearly, though, there has to be some point at which one ceases to be a visitor and should be considered at least temporarily resident, whereupon one starts to accumulate both rights and obligations. The common line in the sand on that is 90 days, with (in Portugal's case, at least) a bit of extra leeway in the form of an additional 30 days to comply with the registration process. Depending on the particular circumstances of the individual beyond that, they may find difficulty accessing services they need without a registration cetificate, and / or they may, knowingly or otherwise, be failing to comply with other obligations and risking being sanctioned for that (which is possibly a good deal more likely than being fined between 400€ & 1500€ simply for failing to register, although that could well enter into things if pulled up on something else).

You're probably right insofar as the overstaying visitors are concerned. I shouldn't think the authorities lose any sleep over them if they're not obviously resident more here than elsewhere and from the point of view of the usefulness of registering them, it's probably practically nil. In any case, I suspect (wild supposition alert!!!) that these particular types make up a comparatively small slice of the total who get into obligatory registration territory. With regard to keeping a register of people on limited or indefinite stays for other purposes, though, I expect they like at least to gather some useful stats. and to make token efforts towards showing that people are complying with the FoM criteria, chiefly in that they have adequate accommodation and sufficient means for themselves and their dependents.

But in neither case do they, or could they realistically, be rigorously enforcing the legal requirement to register. It exists, and most people who want to live here medium to long term will comply, or will soonish come up against something they can't do without a registration certificate, which will either put them further on the wrong side of the law or make their lives that bit more difficult.