EMR

The tax as you insist on calling it is no different than that applied to the vast majority of vehicles on the road in Portugal which were originally imported and which the original owner paid.
How many company cars are there in Portugal compared to the UK.
I suspect that any additional tax revenue would be a drop in the ocean compared to that raised from vehicle imports new or second hand.
All those high end cars owners you refer to have already paid a significant tax on their vehicle when new.
How would the average Portuguese whose income is way below that of those expats react to those who would benefit from a drop in the costs of importing a vehicle.
Its not a beaurocratic inefficiency but simply a means of raising revenue.

macliam

You are incorrect. Used vehicles imported from within the EU have already had their tax paid and are then taxed again, by Portugal, when imported. How is this equal to a car bought new in Portugal? Where tax has been refunded, this is a valid exercise, but not otherwise. The level of tax paid on "High end" cars notwithstanding, it is valid for Portugal to recoup tax "lost" on the initial sale, where the level of taxation is lower in the original country of purchase, it is not valid to seek to charge the tax for a second time or for the scale of charges used to penalize the importation of such vehicles.

Similar arguments were made regarding "grey" imports of vehicles into the UK years ago. The government and the industry had gotten used to charging whatever they felt and the public had no option but to stump up what were some of the highest prices in Europe. Then people found they could import UK-specified cars from Belgium, etc., at a considerably lower price - and all the arguments began. However, the house of cards fell down and the result has been a dramatic change in the relative cost of vehicles in the UK. Oddly, car companies are still making a profit (and the governement is still getting its revenue).

As ownership of a vehicle is often the second major cost in a family's day-to-day life and a source of ongoing debt. So, it's not actually the expats I'm thinking about - it's my brothr-in-law who cannot bring in a car from France or Spain at a much lower price and is forced to fund the fat cats who run up and down the autoestrada (toll free to them) in the Mercedes, BMWs and Audis which inhabit the fast lane of the A1 or any other such road. Without such pressure, the status quo will continue and the working poor will continue to pay the price.

EMR

Its called capitalism, reduce the tax in one area and your brother in law will pay it another way.

Who would benefit from a flood of cheaper second hand imports, those who own the vehicle.
But the rest of the Porttuguese would end up paying more tax to replace the lost revenue.
Why is that fairer ?
Taxation is not fair, never has been and never will be.

macliam

We'll agree to differ, I cannot understand the drive to justify an unfair system because "life's like that" - because that means nothing will ever change.

peterfc

At the end of the day you have chosen to come and live in Portugal, if you don't like the way they run there country then why not move to a country that runs things the way you want.

If you want to import your car then either pay the tax or don;t pay the tax.
If you want to use an agent and pay 400€ plus then do it.
If you don't want to pay the tax you can use an agent or do it yourself like i did.

At the end of the day Portugal won't change because of a few moaning Brits so get on with life.

Peter

Red Eric

As you insist on calling it? It's really very straightforward and there's no need for anybody, including the Portuguese government, to pretend otherwise. It is a tax and that is why it is called a tax. ISV = Imposto Sobre Veículos. Imposto means tax.

I agree there's a degree of protectionism about it but unlike you, I'm not opposed to that for a variety of reasons.

However, the taxes paid on an imported used vehicle are not the same as for a new vehicle because IVA is not charged on the value of used vehicles, only ISV (and, as you say, at a discounted rate rather than the rate for a new vehicle). On a new vehicle you'd pay both ISV at the full rate and VAT. Some countries charge lower VAT and no ISV equivalent which is in part what makes their vehicles cheaper when sold on as compared to in Portugal.

The effect of the tax keeps more trade in used vehicles inside Portugal than would otherwise be the case - or as some in the motor trade and the government put it, helps prevent Portugal become a dumping ground for the EU's unwanted vehicles.

The point of my previous interventions, though, was to point out that contrary to oft-stated misconceptions, it's all perfectly legal and above board in principle as far as the EU is concerned and only requires a minor bit of tweaking to get it unequivocally accepted under the currently applicable EC Directives. And all without Portugal ever having had to pay a cent in fines over the matter.

macliam

If that's aimed at me, Peter, you're rather wide of the mark.
Firstly, I'm not a Brit (moaning or otherwise)
Secondly, I speak Portuguese, I am married to a Portuguese and I have been involved with Portugal for over 26 years.
Thirdly (to repeat an earlier post) I have a Portuguese registered car (not an import).
However, were all this not true, it still wouldn't mean I am not entitled to my opinion or to defend my view of the situation.

Eric, I understand your reasoning, although I don't believe that Portugal actually benefits from the various protectionist rules imposed. However ISV is (or was) charged at the full rate for used vehicles less than a year old and at a minimum of 52% regardless of age or condition. This is due to change in 2017, with all used vehicles having a discount of between 10-80%, depending on age - due to the EU CJ ruling.

This discount will not be applied to the environmental components of the tax (understandably) and what impact it actually has on the cost of imports is yet to be seen.

peterfc

That's not aimed at anybody all i am saying is it's there country to do as they will and for those who don't like it they can always Leave.

Peter

Red Eric

I think that the imposition of the tax on used vehicles is a disincentive to the mass importation of cheaper used vehicles into the country, undercutting the home market. Keeping the new cars bought in Portugal until the end of their useful life and not flooding the market with cheap imports (which would syphon even more money out of Portugal does seem quite sensible to me, if it can be done without contravening community law.

I'm not sure about your logic on this matter : Because surely by keeping the tax at a level which prevents undercutting of the home market, it means used vehicles would normally only be brought in when the home market can't supply for whatever reason. Surely that, in fact, reduces the government's revenue? (although, as I say, keeps more money in Portugal by way of compensation)

Don't get agitated Peter. It's only a discussion - it's what forums are for. Nobody's going to leave the country over a matter like this, I hope - but as we're full time permanent residents in the country, we have as much right to discuss what goes on here as anybody else - it's our country too, now

Ton

See below!

https://aduaneiro.portaldasfinancas....muladorISV.jsp

John1515

Hi all,

Any news on this matter?

Regards,
John.

gedscottish

Since last post was in January, changes that started in January now put the likes of a modern couple of years old 1.6 diesel are 500€ more to import on the ISV and a couple of grand on a 2.2. Older cars with higher cº2 e.g 2004 Merc C220 would now cost around 9k to import! Moral of the story... It's got worse!