License/Permission/Project for fibre spa pool?
Oct 31st 2020, 12:04 pm
#1
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License/Permission/Project for fibre spa pool?
First project of new build included a swimming pool of normal proportions (8x4mtr), all approved by the Council and license to construct issued (2017)
During construction I decided not to include a pool, so an alteration was put into the council to remove the pool from the project, again that was all approved.
Finally a vistoria was done on the house last month and the all important document, `The Habitation License`, was issued to me by the council.
All very excited that I had finally achieved this (all nicely packaged up by the council and handed to me.
Glad to get out of the building I did not look at anything until I got back home, and on scanning the License and looking at the signed plan I need to take to the Finances to determine IMI for the future, realised that my Habitation License included a swimming pool !!! Indeed the pool was clearly on the plan.
Now considering that there is no pool, this posed a bit of a dilema, what to do??
First a chat with the architect I had used. Her opinion was that if I ever intend to put in a pool that she would leave well alone.
Well n asking her would I nevertheless need a construction license and a project to build a pool, her answer was yes you would (technically) but considering you would already be paying IMI as if there was a pool there, then maybe not bother !!!!
SO next was to ask opinion of my Lawyer....His response, a bit the same.
Builders response the same.
Now when I took the pool off the project I did have in mind that maybe at some stage in the future I would put in a small Spa pool (2.75mt diameter) from Leroy Merlin, as a better option for me.
So the question that might resolve my dilemma is ....Is a license/project needed for an in ground (or part in ground) spa, that is NOT laid on a concrete base, but on hardcore ??(Fapi cntro, the manufacturers say concrete is not necessary for this)
It would not be connected to a water supply, just use garden hose to fill, and it would not be directly connected to any waste, as I would simply use a submersible portable pump when needed to shoot the water straight into the road as normal here. Yes there will be a pump and filter to work the jets and filter the water, but that would be enclosed system with the spa water.
As is often the case in Portugal (why there are so many lawyers), I cannot get a definitive answer to this.
I have emailed the town hall planning dept, but dont hold my breath about getting an answer any time soon.
So anyone who know the reality please let me know their thoughts or facts
During construction I decided not to include a pool, so an alteration was put into the council to remove the pool from the project, again that was all approved.
Finally a vistoria was done on the house last month and the all important document, `The Habitation License`, was issued to me by the council.
All very excited that I had finally achieved this (all nicely packaged up by the council and handed to me.
Glad to get out of the building I did not look at anything until I got back home, and on scanning the License and looking at the signed plan I need to take to the Finances to determine IMI for the future, realised that my Habitation License included a swimming pool !!! Indeed the pool was clearly on the plan.
Now considering that there is no pool, this posed a bit of a dilema, what to do??
First a chat with the architect I had used. Her opinion was that if I ever intend to put in a pool that she would leave well alone.
Well n asking her would I nevertheless need a construction license and a project to build a pool, her answer was yes you would (technically) but considering you would already be paying IMI as if there was a pool there, then maybe not bother !!!!
SO next was to ask opinion of my Lawyer....His response, a bit the same.
Builders response the same.
Now when I took the pool off the project I did have in mind that maybe at some stage in the future I would put in a small Spa pool (2.75mt diameter) from Leroy Merlin, as a better option for me.
So the question that might resolve my dilemma is ....Is a license/project needed for an in ground (or part in ground) spa, that is NOT laid on a concrete base, but on hardcore ??(Fapi cntro, the manufacturers say concrete is not necessary for this)
It would not be connected to a water supply, just use garden hose to fill, and it would not be directly connected to any waste, as I would simply use a submersible portable pump when needed to shoot the water straight into the road as normal here. Yes there will be a pump and filter to work the jets and filter the water, but that would be enclosed system with the spa water.
As is often the case in Portugal (why there are so many lawyers), I cannot get a definitive answer to this.
I have emailed the town hall planning dept, but dont hold my breath about getting an answer any time soon.
So anyone who know the reality please let me know their thoughts or facts
Oct 31st 2020, 10:31 pm
#2
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Posts: 1,842
Re: License/Permission/Project for fibre spa pool?
Just thoughts.
Whether or not you need a licence or project for your spa pool, would you pay extra IMI anyway?
There is an IMI simulator somewhere which might give you an idea of the (extra) cost of IMI for admitting or pretending to having a pool. That would help to inform your decisions.
A few years after we bought (and finally worked out how to get online access etc) I found that our Caderneta Predial made no reference to our pool, though it was clearly on the original plans at the Câmara and was, AFAIK, built at the same time as the rest of the house. Our advogada arranged for this to be corrected but it didn't seem to result in any uplift to our annual IMI charges. But then again, I have no idea how the Cadernata's content relates to the VPT. Is the VPT is more based on what is declared on the original Modelo 1 and the Cadernata a form of free text summary?
Whether or not you need a licence or project for your spa pool, would you pay extra IMI anyway?
There is an IMI simulator somewhere which might give you an idea of the (extra) cost of IMI for admitting or pretending to having a pool. That would help to inform your decisions.
A few years after we bought (and finally worked out how to get online access etc) I found that our Caderneta Predial made no reference to our pool, though it was clearly on the original plans at the Câmara and was, AFAIK, built at the same time as the rest of the house. Our advogada arranged for this to be corrected but it didn't seem to result in any uplift to our annual IMI charges. But then again, I have no idea how the Cadernata's content relates to the VPT. Is the VPT is more based on what is declared on the original Modelo 1 and the Cadernata a form of free text summary?
Nov 1st 2020, 9:24 am
#3
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Re: License/Permission/Project for fibre spa pool?
Hi Richard
The plans signed and given to me for the Modelo1 IMI submission, clearly show the original 8 x 4 pool in a certain position in the garden. I guess one of my concerns might be any future problem that could arise when the property is sold. If asked for a copy then the HL clearly mentions a pool (but not size), but the accompanying plan would show a proper pool of 8 x 4 rather than a spa in a different place., and maybe a conscientious lawyer might suggest that the HL is not accurate. The Modelo1 form does ask if there is a pool (and of course given that the HL says a pool is included then I would have ti say that there is one, and that would be the truth. So there`s a concern.
That is why it is important (IMO) to know if a project and license for construction is needed for this spa. If not needed then it is likely that there is no impact on IMI value, and therefore best thing to do would be get the HL put right and the last approved plan used instead (without pool shown), hence no charge for a pool.
But if a license and project is needed for this spa, then IMO, it means that the IMI would be impacted, and I would be better then, to put ask for the council to amend (put right) the current HL they issued and then go through the procedure for applying for a license and project for the spa, then adjust the Modelo1 IMI to show that spa.That way there would be the correct paperwork held at the council showing the license to install it.
I cannot understand why neither my architect, lawyer actually know the answer.
I can only hope the Camara planner responds with the definitive answer (although I do feel that it is in their interest to simply say yes you need plans/project and license.)
The plans signed and given to me for the Modelo1 IMI submission, clearly show the original 8 x 4 pool in a certain position in the garden. I guess one of my concerns might be any future problem that could arise when the property is sold. If asked for a copy then the HL clearly mentions a pool (but not size), but the accompanying plan would show a proper pool of 8 x 4 rather than a spa in a different place., and maybe a conscientious lawyer might suggest that the HL is not accurate. The Modelo1 form does ask if there is a pool (and of course given that the HL says a pool is included then I would have ti say that there is one, and that would be the truth. So there`s a concern.
That is why it is important (IMO) to know if a project and license for construction is needed for this spa. If not needed then it is likely that there is no impact on IMI value, and therefore best thing to do would be get the HL put right and the last approved plan used instead (without pool shown), hence no charge for a pool.
But if a license and project is needed for this spa, then IMO, it means that the IMI would be impacted, and I would be better then, to put ask for the council to amend (put right) the current HL they issued and then go through the procedure for applying for a license and project for the spa, then adjust the Modelo1 IMI to show that spa.That way there would be the correct paperwork held at the council showing the license to install it.
I cannot understand why neither my architect, lawyer actually know the answer.
I can only hope the Camara planner responds with the definitive answer (although I do feel that it is in their interest to simply say yes you need plans/project and license.)
Nov 1st 2020, 3:40 pm
#4
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Joined: Nov 2017
Posts: 569
Re: License/Permission/Project for fibre spa pool?
Hi Richard
The plans signed and given to me for the Modelo1 IMI submission, clearly show the original 8 x 4 pool in a certain position in the garden. I guess one of my concerns might be any future problem that could arise when the property is sold. If asked for a copy then the HL clearly mentions a pool (but not size), but the accompanying plan would show a proper pool of 8 x 4 rather than a spa in a different place., and maybe a conscientious lawyer might suggest that the HL is not accurate. The Modelo1 form does ask if there is a pool (and of course given that the HL says a pool is included then I would have ti say that there is one, and that would be the truth. So there`s a concern.
That is why it is important (IMO) to know if a project and license for construction is needed for this spa. If not needed then it is likely that there is no impact on IMI value, and therefore best thing to do would be get the HL put right and the last approved plan used instead (without pool shown), hence no charge for a pool.
But if a license and project is needed for this spa, then IMO, it means that the IMI would be impacted, and I would be better then, to put ask for the council to amend (put right) the current HL they issued and then go through the procedure for applying for a license and project for the spa, then adjust the Modelo1 IMI to show that spa.That way there would be the correct paperwork held at the council showing the license to install it.
I cannot understand why neither my architect, lawyer actually know the answer.
I can only hope the Camara planner responds with the definitive answer (although I do feel that it is in their interest to simply say yes you need plans/project and license.)
The plans signed and given to me for the Modelo1 IMI submission, clearly show the original 8 x 4 pool in a certain position in the garden. I guess one of my concerns might be any future problem that could arise when the property is sold. If asked for a copy then the HL clearly mentions a pool (but not size), but the accompanying plan would show a proper pool of 8 x 4 rather than a spa in a different place., and maybe a conscientious lawyer might suggest that the HL is not accurate. The Modelo1 form does ask if there is a pool (and of course given that the HL says a pool is included then I would have ti say that there is one, and that would be the truth. So there`s a concern.
That is why it is important (IMO) to know if a project and license for construction is needed for this spa. If not needed then it is likely that there is no impact on IMI value, and therefore best thing to do would be get the HL put right and the last approved plan used instead (without pool shown), hence no charge for a pool.
But if a license and project is needed for this spa, then IMO, it means that the IMI would be impacted, and I would be better then, to put ask for the council to amend (put right) the current HL they issued and then go through the procedure for applying for a license and project for the spa, then adjust the Modelo1 IMI to show that spa.That way there would be the correct paperwork held at the council showing the license to install it.
I cannot understand why neither my architect, lawyer actually know the answer.
I can only hope the Camara planner responds with the definitive answer (although I do feel that it is in their interest to simply say yes you need plans/project and license.)
Nov 1st 2020, 3:50 pm
#5
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,712
Re: License/Permission/Project for fibre spa pool?
Hi
Interesting you should say that, its exactly what I had in mind. Not completely above ground or it would take up too much room for steps to get in it, but in the ground to the bottom half to the seating level, then I reckon only or maybe 2 small steps. About where I have the dotted line, that way the seating area which is a bit wider internally would offer a larger area for taking the weight.
I agree with you that installed like this, on hardcore, does not IMO constitute a permanent structure like a normal size swimming pool, fibre or concrete, as they both need a reinforced base to support the weight.
But of course if there was a simple law (and I suspect that there isn`t or my lawyer should have just told me) it would be easy, but without one, each Camara probably comes up with its own rules, and as I said if you dont need a license and project and therefore approval, I guess you dont need to change the Modelo 1 IMI at the Finances.
Interesting you should say that, its exactly what I had in mind. Not completely above ground or it would take up too much room for steps to get in it, but in the ground to the bottom half to the seating level, then I reckon only or maybe 2 small steps. About where I have the dotted line, that way the seating area which is a bit wider internally would offer a larger area for taking the weight.
I agree with you that installed like this, on hardcore, does not IMO constitute a permanent structure like a normal size swimming pool, fibre or concrete, as they both need a reinforced base to support the weight.
But of course if there was a simple law (and I suspect that there isn`t or my lawyer should have just told me) it would be easy, but without one, each Camara probably comes up with its own rules, and as I said if you dont need a license and project and therefore approval, I guess you dont need to change the Modelo 1 IMI at the Finances.
