Esquentador with Solar hot water question
Dec 6th 2019, 5:19 pm
#1
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Esquentador with Solar hot water question
Hi ALl
I am hoping that someone can help.
I had a Vulcano Sensor ventilado gas boiler installed a year ago. I wanted one that would accept Hot water from a Solar heated tank in the future.
No problems with the boiler at all.
A month ago I had to install Solar Hot Water on the roof , again no problems and it was all installed.
I have followed the instruction book to put a delay into the boiler so it does not fire until after 40 seconds. This is what the instructin booklet tells you to do with solar.
However just the opposite happens, The boiler fires up as soon a a hot tap is turned on but goes off after maybe 30 seconds and then it says that the water is coming frm the solar.
Annoyingly neither Vulcano, their Albufeira agent or the installer can tell me if this is correct. They all want to come to do a service !!! Oh yeh !! Oh no.
DOes anyone have any experience. Its just that I would have thought the boiler would not fire, unless the water from the solar is not hot enough after 40 secs, AS that would be saving gas. The way it is at the moment it uses gas even though the water from the solar tank is at 60 degrees.
The water even usung the boiler still takes 30 seconds before it os hot at the furtherst tap.
Any help appreciated
I am hoping that someone can help.
I had a Vulcano Sensor ventilado gas boiler installed a year ago. I wanted one that would accept Hot water from a Solar heated tank in the future.
No problems with the boiler at all.
A month ago I had to install Solar Hot Water on the roof , again no problems and it was all installed.
I have followed the instruction book to put a delay into the boiler so it does not fire until after 40 seconds. This is what the instructin booklet tells you to do with solar.
However just the opposite happens, The boiler fires up as soon a a hot tap is turned on but goes off after maybe 30 seconds and then it says that the water is coming frm the solar.
Annoyingly neither Vulcano, their Albufeira agent or the installer can tell me if this is correct. They all want to come to do a service !!! Oh yeh !! Oh no.
DOes anyone have any experience. Its just that I would have thought the boiler would not fire, unless the water from the solar is not hot enough after 40 secs, AS that would be saving gas. The way it is at the moment it uses gas even though the water from the solar tank is at 60 degrees.
The water even usung the boiler still takes 30 seconds before it os hot at the furtherst tap.
Any help appreciated
Dec 6th 2019, 10:48 pm
#2
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Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
I am not a plumber and have never had anything to do with what you are trying to make work. However, looking at what you want I am not sure you will get it based on what you have described. Sorry to have to say this.
From what you have said you seem to have a solar hot water system that feeds a hot water tank/ heats the water in the tank. Based on my understanding for what you said you also have a gas boiler that can heat up the water 'on demand' as you draw off water.
If I understand this right you have a boiler that will detect that you are drawing off water and fire up ready to heat the water. That is what you would expect the boiler to do. Then, in your proposed design, you feed the hot water from the solar hot water tank to the boiler but it will take time for the hot water to arrive as the gas boiler is already full of water that has not been heated by solar and needs to be flushed through the boiler. So the gas boiler senses the water draw off and the temperature of the water in the gas heater is such that the gas heater will fire up. Then, once the hot water from the solar is feed into the heater, maybe the gas heater senses that it does not need to heat the water and stops trying.
Unfortunately for you, to me, if you manufacture a boiler to heat water it seems illogical to create a program that effectively tells the heater to ignore the demand for hot water for xx seconds before trying to heat the water. Because who wants to wait 40 seconds before the boiler starts to heat the water, which will then start to make its way to your shower, whilst you stand there in your altogether nothing, wishing some hot water would issue from the shower. That 40 seconds will easily become more than a minute at the shower head and that is a long time to wait for hot water.
On the other hand, if you designed a gas boiler to work with a solar hot water system from the ground up, then maybe it would do what you want. But I think that is unlikely. Why? Because, it is too much simpler to have a thermostat on the solar hot water tank that will fire up an alternative source of heat (gas boiler), should the temperature of the water in the solar tank fall below the set minimum temperature.
Then when you draw off the water for the shower or anywhere else, the hot water is supplied from the hot water tank. How the water in the tank was heated does not matter when you are in the shower wishing for hot water.
Now you might come up with some convoluted process where when you draw off hot water it first starts to draw it from the tank but a heat sensor recognises that the hot water tank is providing water at a temperature lower than desired and this causes a valve to shut off the supply from the hot water tank and draws instead from the hot water supply from the gas boiler (which until then had been shut off by the same valve), etc. But this is over complicated even though it seems to be what you want.
I think the solution to your problem is possibly lurking somewhere other than where you are looking?
As I said I am no plumber and have no experience in this area. I just wonder whether you might benefit from standing back and looking at what you want to achieve (not how you want to achieve it) and then asking for advice. I am sure there is a solution out there and someone to help you.
From what you have said you seem to have a solar hot water system that feeds a hot water tank/ heats the water in the tank. Based on my understanding for what you said you also have a gas boiler that can heat up the water 'on demand' as you draw off water.
If I understand this right you have a boiler that will detect that you are drawing off water and fire up ready to heat the water. That is what you would expect the boiler to do. Then, in your proposed design, you feed the hot water from the solar hot water tank to the boiler but it will take time for the hot water to arrive as the gas boiler is already full of water that has not been heated by solar and needs to be flushed through the boiler. So the gas boiler senses the water draw off and the temperature of the water in the gas heater is such that the gas heater will fire up. Then, once the hot water from the solar is feed into the heater, maybe the gas heater senses that it does not need to heat the water and stops trying.
Unfortunately for you, to me, if you manufacture a boiler to heat water it seems illogical to create a program that effectively tells the heater to ignore the demand for hot water for xx seconds before trying to heat the water. Because who wants to wait 40 seconds before the boiler starts to heat the water, which will then start to make its way to your shower, whilst you stand there in your altogether nothing, wishing some hot water would issue from the shower. That 40 seconds will easily become more than a minute at the shower head and that is a long time to wait for hot water.
On the other hand, if you designed a gas boiler to work with a solar hot water system from the ground up, then maybe it would do what you want. But I think that is unlikely. Why? Because, it is too much simpler to have a thermostat on the solar hot water tank that will fire up an alternative source of heat (gas boiler), should the temperature of the water in the solar tank fall below the set minimum temperature.
Then when you draw off the water for the shower or anywhere else, the hot water is supplied from the hot water tank. How the water in the tank was heated does not matter when you are in the shower wishing for hot water.
Now you might come up with some convoluted process where when you draw off hot water it first starts to draw it from the tank but a heat sensor recognises that the hot water tank is providing water at a temperature lower than desired and this causes a valve to shut off the supply from the hot water tank and draws instead from the hot water supply from the gas boiler (which until then had been shut off by the same valve), etc. But this is over complicated even though it seems to be what you want.
I think the solution to your problem is possibly lurking somewhere other than where you are looking?
As I said I am no plumber and have no experience in this area. I just wonder whether you might benefit from standing back and looking at what you want to achieve (not how you want to achieve it) and then asking for advice. I am sure there is a solution out there and someone to help you.
Last edited by fergus; Dec 6th 2019 at 10:51 pm.
Dec 7th 2019, 12:09 pm
#3
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Posts: 14,970
Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
I'd agree - the issue is that the water in the boiler and in the pipes leading to and from the boiler will be cold, so there will always be a delay before the delivery of hot water depending on the distance it has to travel - why you would then wish to delay the firing of the boiler is beyond me.... unless this is supposed to give time for the warmer water from the solar accumulator to flow to through the thermostat.
Secondly, the temperature at which the water is delivered to the boiler may still be below what the boiler is set to deliver, so the boiler would still need to heat it, but obviously from a higher starting temperature than from cold. This will mean your gas usage is lower, but not necessarily zero.
Secondly, the temperature at which the water is delivered to the boiler may still be below what the boiler is set to deliver, so the boiler would still need to heat it, but obviously from a higher starting temperature than from cold. This will mean your gas usage is lower, but not necessarily zero.
Dec 7th 2019, 12:24 pm
#4
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 265
Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
Questions questions questions, do you have a thermometer and a watch/clock with a second hand?
With boiler turned off so it doesn't fire - time the hot water from the tank till it flows OUT of the boiler - with one normal tap turned on.
If your solar hot water temp is higher then the boiler's set output temperature then the delay is designed for the solar hot water to reach the outlet of the boiler (temperature sensor) and thus turn the boiler off BEFORE the boiler automatically fires to heat the water.
With boiler turned off so it doesn't fire - time the hot water from the tank till it flows OUT of the boiler - with one normal tap turned on.
If your solar hot water temp is higher then the boiler's set output temperature then the delay is designed for the solar hot water to reach the outlet of the boiler (temperature sensor) and thus turn the boiler off BEFORE the boiler automatically fires to heat the water.
Dec 8th 2019, 7:23 am
#5
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Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
hi all
Thank you to all that have replied.
Maybe was not clear with my question.
I am not trying to create something new, all of this equipment exists and is installed. My question is about the way that it is working.
The boiler I have is designed to accept its feed from a Solar tank.(ie water heated by solar panels). That is the reason I chose this particular gas boiler.
I did not want to rely on the built in immersion heater for back up when its cloudy.
So all of the hot water required at a tap will come from the solar source.
The Vulcano installation mentions using this boiler with Solar water, and it says
1) Record the time it takes for the water to become hot at the furthest tap away from the boiler (note boiler is off, this is just using solar hot water).....(from cold).
In my case it is 40 seconds.
2) Go to the digital screen on the boiler, press this, press that button, you will see this and that, then input the time in seconds it took for the water to become hot. (40 seconds).
3) Turn off boiler and restart.
4) So I did that and all was as expected according to the instructions.
Now this is where there seems to be some confusion, at least with me.
After having carried out the procedure, I expected that the boiler would not fire up until
A) After 40 seconds, and
B) Only if the solar water was lower than the boiler is set at. (in my case that is 50 C.
Now the fact is that I already knew that to get hot water using only the boiler (no solar) to the fartest tap, took 30 seconds.
So the difference is only 10 seconds.
I assumed that the so called `delay` was to stop the boiler from firing in the first 40 seconds as the first lot of `hot water` from the solar would in fact be cold (in the pipes from the solar). This made perefct sense to me or the boiler would come on during that time and waste gas.
However this is not what is happening.
Instead the boiler comes on immediately when a hot tap is turned on.
I checked it this morning and the boiler fires for 50 seconds then turns itself off and a small image of the sun appears on the screen, which is supposed to show that only water from the solar is now being consumed.
So I have used gas for almost a minute pointlessly as the water still took 40 seconds to get hot at that tap.
This seems to me to be the opposite of what I would have thought would happen.
The local Vulcano service agent (given by Vulcano themselves) says maybe the boiler is not equipped for solar !!!! ???? and that he needs to come tpo check which version it is at a cost of 50e...........this is despite my mentioning that the instruction booklet supplied with the boiler clearly shows this solar compatibility, and that the boiler screen follows those instructions 100%. Making me assume that it is solar compatible.
Vulcano technical dept. seemed very unsure when I asked them. The engineer I spoke with needed to talk with her colleagues, but in the end suggested that they thought I was correct in assuming the boiler should NOT start up until at least 40 seconds.
nb
I could understand, in a way, if what is happening is correct, in that maybe the programmed is designed to allow the boiler to start up immediately, to speed up the time it takes for hot water to appear at the tap...........only problem here is that it only saves 10 seconds in real terms but the boiler is on for 40 secs.
Its not big deal I know, but I just wanted to know of anyone with solar and gas boiler if this was cotrrect without forking out 50e to the service people.
Of course there could be something wrong with the boiler, and that would be morre of a concern,
Thank you to all that have replied.
Maybe was not clear with my question.
I am not trying to create something new, all of this equipment exists and is installed. My question is about the way that it is working.
The boiler I have is designed to accept its feed from a Solar tank.(ie water heated by solar panels). That is the reason I chose this particular gas boiler.
I did not want to rely on the built in immersion heater for back up when its cloudy.
So all of the hot water required at a tap will come from the solar source.
The Vulcano installation mentions using this boiler with Solar water, and it says
1) Record the time it takes for the water to become hot at the furthest tap away from the boiler (note boiler is off, this is just using solar hot water).....(from cold).
In my case it is 40 seconds.
2) Go to the digital screen on the boiler, press this, press that button, you will see this and that, then input the time in seconds it took for the water to become hot. (40 seconds).
3) Turn off boiler and restart.
4) So I did that and all was as expected according to the instructions.
Now this is where there seems to be some confusion, at least with me.
After having carried out the procedure, I expected that the boiler would not fire up until
A) After 40 seconds, and
B) Only if the solar water was lower than the boiler is set at. (in my case that is 50 C.
Now the fact is that I already knew that to get hot water using only the boiler (no solar) to the fartest tap, took 30 seconds.
So the difference is only 10 seconds.
I assumed that the so called `delay` was to stop the boiler from firing in the first 40 seconds as the first lot of `hot water` from the solar would in fact be cold (in the pipes from the solar). This made perefct sense to me or the boiler would come on during that time and waste gas.
However this is not what is happening.
Instead the boiler comes on immediately when a hot tap is turned on.
I checked it this morning and the boiler fires for 50 seconds then turns itself off and a small image of the sun appears on the screen, which is supposed to show that only water from the solar is now being consumed.
So I have used gas for almost a minute pointlessly as the water still took 40 seconds to get hot at that tap.
This seems to me to be the opposite of what I would have thought would happen.
The local Vulcano service agent (given by Vulcano themselves) says maybe the boiler is not equipped for solar !!!! ???? and that he needs to come tpo check which version it is at a cost of 50e...........this is despite my mentioning that the instruction booklet supplied with the boiler clearly shows this solar compatibility, and that the boiler screen follows those instructions 100%. Making me assume that it is solar compatible.
Vulcano technical dept. seemed very unsure when I asked them. The engineer I spoke with needed to talk with her colleagues, but in the end suggested that they thought I was correct in assuming the boiler should NOT start up until at least 40 seconds.
nb
I could understand, in a way, if what is happening is correct, in that maybe the programmed is designed to allow the boiler to start up immediately, to speed up the time it takes for hot water to appear at the tap...........only problem here is that it only saves 10 seconds in real terms but the boiler is on for 40 secs.
Its not big deal I know, but I just wanted to know of anyone with solar and gas boiler if this was cotrrect without forking out 50e to the service people.
Of course there could be something wrong with the boiler, and that would be morre of a concern,
Dec 8th 2019, 7:41 am
#6
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Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
As a footnote to the above.
Having had a shower this morning, the system did as described above.
Immediately after the shower I looked at the boiler screen and the image of the sun was still showing. So I turned a hot tap on again. This time the boiler did not fire up.
But having waited for about 5 minutes the sun image had gone and when I turned a hot tap on again, the boiler fired up, but this time only for 12 seconds, before the sun image came back on the screen and the boiler stopped.
Having had a shower this morning, the system did as described above.
Immediately after the shower I looked at the boiler screen and the image of the sun was still showing. So I turned a hot tap on again. This time the boiler did not fire up.
But having waited for about 5 minutes the sun image had gone and when I turned a hot tap on again, the boiler fired up, but this time only for 12 seconds, before the sun image came back on the screen and the boiler stopped.
Dec 8th 2019, 8:03 am
#7
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Posts: 265
Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
Sorry but my reply above got "truncated".
Sounds like your system is not implementing any programmed delay but taking the temperature of the water coming out of the boiler to turn on and off. Is there any display on the screen for the delay? If not then try looking through the menus for something like "delay on/off". Do you have the exact model of the boiler?
Sounds like your system is not implementing any programmed delay but taking the temperature of the water coming out of the boiler to turn on and off. Is there any display on the screen for the delay? If not then try looking through the menus for something like "delay on/off". Do you have the exact model of the boiler?
Dec 8th 2019, 8:11 am
#8
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Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
Is there any other delay timer that can be used to prevent firing for 10 or 20 seconds, regardless of the incoming water temperature? I realise that this is the opposite of what most people might want and will waste water but not gas.
Edit after: Didn't see the previous response!
Edit after: Didn't see the previous response!
Dec 8th 2019, 8:11 am
#9
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Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
Hi
Yes this is what I am thinking.
The boiler is a Vulcano Sensor ventilado (first version) WTD 11 but/prop
Bought in Jan 2019.
There is no version number of it unless presumably I take the outer cover off, but its encased in my kitchen units and a bit of a job to do that.
Yes as far as the screen is concerned I followed the instructions given in the manual and everything it said should come up, came up, and I restarted the boiler per instructions.
Must admit that somewhere in that process I managed to change the temo to Fahenhite, but no idea how to get back in. The temp is set at 122deg F which is 50 deg C.
Being gas and me not being sure I am a bit unsure about gong into the programmes asn only seen the prog 7 which is supposed to input the delay.
This is the link to the boiler at Vulcano
https://www.vulcano.pt/consumidor/se...oesquentadores
Yes this is what I am thinking.
The boiler is a Vulcano Sensor ventilado (first version) WTD 11 but/prop
Bought in Jan 2019.
There is no version number of it unless presumably I take the outer cover off, but its encased in my kitchen units and a bit of a job to do that.
Yes as far as the screen is concerned I followed the instructions given in the manual and everything it said should come up, came up, and I restarted the boiler per instructions.
Must admit that somewhere in that process I managed to change the temo to Fahenhite, but no idea how to get back in. The temp is set at 122deg F which is 50 deg C.
Being gas and me not being sure I am a bit unsure about gong into the programmes asn only seen the prog 7 which is supposed to input the delay.
This is the link to the boiler at Vulcano
https://www.vulcano.pt/consumidor/se...oesquentadores
Dec 8th 2019, 8:23 am
#10
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Posts: 1,705
Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
this is what the Vulcano instructions say:
4.7
Startup delay (system supportsolar)In the case of the existence of a solar system, it should bestart-up of the appliance to avoid unnecessary.
Hot water arrival time measurement►
Switch off the appliance.►
Open a hot water tap.►
Record in seconds how long the hot water takes time to get to the tap.Record the time►
Press and hold the programming key.(Fig. 8, pos. 3), set the main switch(Fig. 8, pos. 1) in the ON position.
Release the programming key only when the LCDdisplay the indication “188”.
The LCD panel shows “P2”.► Press the keyuntil “P7” appears.
The appliance is in the adjustment position forstart up delay.
The following steps must be performed:at the end of a day of good exposuresolar.
Using the keysandto memorize inseconds, the desired start-up delay time.
The maximum delay time is 60 seconds.► Switch off the appliance again.W
hen the appliance is switched on, thestart-up delay, the device ignites only aftertime has elapsed.
4.7
Startup delay (system supportsolar)In the case of the existence of a solar system, it should bestart-up of the appliance to avoid unnecessary.
Hot water arrival time measurement►
Switch off the appliance.►
Open a hot water tap.►
Record in seconds how long the hot water takes time to get to the tap.Record the time►
Press and hold the programming key.(Fig. 8, pos. 3), set the main switch(Fig. 8, pos. 1) in the ON position.
Release the programming key only when the LCDdisplay the indication “188”.
The LCD panel shows “P2”.► Press the keyuntil “P7” appears.
The appliance is in the adjustment position forstart up delay.
The following steps must be performed:at the end of a day of good exposuresolar.
Using the keysandto memorize inseconds, the desired start-up delay time.
The maximum delay time is 60 seconds.► Switch off the appliance again.W
hen the appliance is switched on, thestart-up delay, the device ignites only aftertime has elapsed.
Dec 9th 2019, 6:51 am
#11
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 265
Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
Hi,
In this bit
The appliance is in the adjustment position forstart up delay.
The following steps must be performed:at the end of a day of good exposuresolar.
Using the keysandto memorize inseconds, the desired start-up delay time.
The maximum delay time is 60 seconds.► Switch off the appliance again.W
If you go through the programming a second time is the delay you put in the first time still there or has it reverted to zero (or some other default symbol/number)?
In this bit
The appliance is in the adjustment position forstart up delay.
The following steps must be performed:at the end of a day of good exposuresolar.
Using the keysandto memorize inseconds, the desired start-up delay time.
The maximum delay time is 60 seconds.► Switch off the appliance again.W
If you go through the programming a second time is the delay you put in the first time still there or has it reverted to zero (or some other default symbol/number)?
Dec 9th 2019, 10:06 am
#12
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Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
Hi
Thanks for the suggestion.
However I have done this twice already.
The second time I went through the process I do remember that the space to inout the time was --, the same as it was the first time. I must admit to therefore being unsure if anything was programmed in or not.
There is a reset button on the controls but I have not touched that yet.
Because the last 3 days has been sunny all day and hot, I am thinking of tturning the boiler off.
But dont know if the water will then travel through the boiler, or if there is a valve that will then be closed. I am a bit paranoid when it comes to anything with gas involved.
Although there are enough gas taps in these new systems (3 in total) all required by law. The system has a SETINSP certification which was done after installation so it should be safe.
What do you think?
Thanks for the suggestion.
However I have done this twice already.
The second time I went through the process I do remember that the space to inout the time was --, the same as it was the first time. I must admit to therefore being unsure if anything was programmed in or not.
There is a reset button on the controls but I have not touched that yet.
Because the last 3 days has been sunny all day and hot, I am thinking of tturning the boiler off.
But dont know if the water will then travel through the boiler, or if there is a valve that will then be closed. I am a bit paranoid when it comes to anything with gas involved.
Although there are enough gas taps in these new systems (3 in total) all required by law. The system has a SETINSP certification which was done after installation so it should be safe.
What do you think?
Dec 9th 2019, 10:09 am
#13
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Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
Have you possibly missed the equivalent of the 'save program' button?
Dec 9th 2019, 10:38 am
#14
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Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
Hi Richard
All I can say is that I followed the instructions in the manual. There was no mention of a final `save` section.
What I am going to do is to do a video of the boiler screen, when I know that no hot water has been used for an hour or so, and put it on youtube.
I will do this after I now that no hot water has been drawn through the boiler, so it will start as it does from first thing in the morning.
Hope to get this done this afternoon and will post the link on here.
All I can say is that I followed the instructions in the manual. There was no mention of a final `save` section.
What I am going to do is to do a video of the boiler screen, when I know that no hot water has been used for an hour or so, and put it on youtube.
I will do this after I now that no hot water has been drawn through the boiler, so it will start as it does from first thing in the morning.
Hope to get this done this afternoon and will post the link on here.
Dec 9th 2019, 10:59 am
#15
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Re: Esquentador with Solar hot water question
What happens during the delay setting process if you press the + and - keys together, once you've adjusted the delay time? The manual seems to say press + AND - (my highlighting) to memorise (not adjust) the delay time.