RichardHenshall

The fuse is there to protect the appliance's flex from overloading. It will do that in Portugal too. Not all Portuguese houses have RCDs, or similar, and you can overload a flex without having current leakage.

Personally, I find that original moulded plugs (used with an adapter, if needed) are often preferable to many of the re-wire-able plugs locally available (and the combination potentially provides for greater protection because of the fuse (if properly rated)). They also don't compromise the appliance warranty, when using newer appliances.

The adapter also copes with UK sourced phone chargers and other power blocks that cannot be easily replaced and since the adapters are so cheap you can have one adapter per device, so it's there when and where you need it.

s5tuart

Good post! This is what I choose.

liveaboard

The UK plugs often have a fuse in them; the euro ones don't. It makes no difference in practice, there's always a fuse or breaker at the circuit board.
RCB [remote circuit breaker], or RCD [residual current device]? The later is a very sensitive protection device also known as a ground fault interrupter. All new installations have them, older ones don't. It will be just as effective whether or not your appliance has a safety earth [third prong].

Most things don't these days; usually only heavy resistive users like toasters or ovens.
The UK plug is neither better nor worse than the Euro one, they're just different in style.

Of course, if something is getting hot, then that's bad [defective] and must be fixed. For anything over 1000w [5A] I'd change the plug [or outlet], and not use an adapter. Everything else [95% of appliances], use very little current and shouldn't be much worry.

An RCB [or GFI] can be retrofitted to the power board if you have an old electrical installation. It's quite easy.

MikeJ

That is way all consumer units in the UK (which comply with UK regulations) have at least one RCB built in - so you don't need to have individual rcbs - except possibly for use in the garden if you don't want to take down the whole house when you chop through your over-extended extension cord! .
The fuse in the plug BTW is to protect the device/tool/wiring and not the users.

coleio

Unfortunately I am presently in the UK looking, and if I could post a photo I'd show you, at a "house fuse box" as the locals call it but you call consumer unit. There is no RCB and the EDF inspection cert is dated 2009, all the flats in this block are similar.

Last week I did a PAT test on an BS5733 adaptor from in a PT house designed to use a UK plug in a PT socket where the house tripped whenever it was plugged in, in small letters it says MAX 7.5A so their 13A kettle was shorting the house PT because of the overloaded adaptor but the UK kettle fuse was ok. In the UK PAT testing, with it emphasis on the UK fused plug, is to ensure the safety of the user, copies of the UK regulations are available for your inspection.

The UK plug has a fuse on the UK live wire which can only cut the power on the UK live wire downstream. Plugging a UK plug via an adaptor into a PT socket you have no way of knowing if your UK fuse in now on the PT live or PT natural so you have a 50% chance of your overload current going down your UK nutural side of the cable. Unlike your UK plug the Euro standard RCB will disconnect both sides of the supply.

RichardHenshall

A 3kW appliance is a heavy load by Portuguese standards and should definitely not be used with an adapter. Each circuit is only rated to 16A, so using one 13A load doesn't leave much for other appliances on the same circuit. Depending on the property's contracted potência, there may not even be enough to power that one appliance before the main (EDP) breaker trips.

coleio

Sorry but ffrom your two posts I'm no sure what your safety advice for using a 3kW kettle is

A, Always use a UK plug and an adaptor to a PT socket never fit a PT plug as it is intrinsically safer

B, Never use a UK plug and an adaptor to a PT socket always fit a PT plug as it intrinsically safer

RichardHenshall

My safety advice would be to buy a new, less powerful kettle in Portugal.

However, if you're sure the kettle isn't suffering from any faults and isn't overloading the circuit (perhaps in conjunction with other appliances) or the whole property's supply, then get a competent person to fit a good quality CEE 7/7 plug (or better still change the whole flex to a suitably rated one with a moulded CEE 7/7 plug).

It isn't clear from your posts whether it is an MCB, an RCB or the main (EDP) breaker that is tripping. The explanation and the recommended solution(s) will possibly be different for each. Perhaps you could be more precise?

MikeJ

I don't want to get into a p.....g contest over electrical regulations but I should point out that a lot of what you wrote is misinformed and potentially dangerous:
Fuses: It takes only a few hundred milliamps (thousandths of an amp) to kill someone, depending on personal circumstances (eg wringing wet, standing in a puddle by the bath/pool). You'd be long dead if you waited for a 13A fuse to blow. A fuse is a protection device for the wiring designed to blow if the overload current is likely to melt the PVC sheathing of the cable and possibly start a fire [note: wiring circuit also includes the internal wiring of the connected device which is why you will sometimes get a 3 amp cartridge fuse in a 3 pin plug and sometimes a 13A]. The fuse rating is dependant upon the current rating of the wiring circuit. (see IEEE Regulations (BS7671 16th edition section 3.6.3 for more detail)
Not sure what you mean by the 'downstream' side since domestic electricity is invariably alternating current and therefore goes both ways at once

RCBs RCBs work by detecting a difference between the phase (live) current and the neutral, therefore both sides have to be connected to the RCD in order for it to work. Most commercially available and certainly those fitted to domestic consumer units will disconnect both sides when tripped. The RCDevices are designed to protect users and are typically set to trip at around 2mA. (see IEEE BS7671 section 5.9 for details)

The inspection by EDF that you refer to will be a check to ensure that the wiring system still conforms to the regulations that were in force when installed are still complied with. It is almost certainly not a certificate that the users are safe. Certainly not if the Main Circuit Breaker is not also an RCD (most are these days but you would need to look hard to tell the difference unless it is a very old installation)

PAT testing does not directly ensure safety of the user, it merely ensures that an metal parts of the device cannot become 'live' (or are not at the time of testing - a bit like the MOT). It cannot ensure that if a user should come into contact with a live part that they will not get a shock and potentially die.

daisyman1951

So MikeJ what do you think about the adapter in the first post of this thread?

MikeJ

Personally I bought a couple of 3 or 4 way good quality extension blocks from the UK and changed the plug for one that included an earth connector and only use it in sockets which also have an earth (usually the higher current ones in the kitchen). It's worth noticing that many appliances from the UK are 2 wire (no earth) these days - the earth pin on the plug being plastic and simply used to open the safety shutter. [Actually that is one good safety point for the UK system, 2 pin continental plugs very rarely have a protective shutter so little fingers could poke metal objects into them.]

BTW - I hasten to add that I am not a qualified electrician, although I was trained in high energy power as part of my electronics/telecommunications background and I rather sadly have a copy of the latest IEEE regulations in my bookshelf .]

coleio

PAT testing does not directly ensure safety of the user, it merely ensures that an metal parts of the device cannot become 'live' (or are not at the time of testing - a bit like the MOT). It cannot ensure that if a user should come into contact with a live part that they will not get a shock and potentially die.[/QUOTE]

http://www.pat-testing.info/legal.htm

Please argue with the regulator as you, obviously, know better.

MikeJ

http://www.pat-testing.info/legal.htm

Please argue with the regulator as you, obviously, know better.[/QUOTE]

If you read what I wrote and the regulations properly you will see that is EXACTLY what I said. PAT testing ensures that electrical devices are electrically safe (when tested) it does not (and cannot) directly ensure that the user is protected. To do so every electrical device would have to a RCD built in - which is b.....x. If anything it protects the employer from litigation!

old.sparkles

Mike you do need to be a little careful with some of the comments as there are a number of inaccuracies in what you have written eg most RCD's are 30mA; leakage current would be assumed as 2mA and an RCD with this rating would cause nuisance tripping.

PAT testing is designed to protect the user; it does not stop metal parts becoming live under fault conditions, but that if that were to happen, the appliance is correctly earthed causing fault protection to operate. At no time should it be possible for a user to come into contact with parts designed to be live in normal use.

MikeJ

The first sentance (ie re 2mA) is a direct quote from the IEEE manual section 5.9.3. - the current setting varies according to the specification of the RCD - from as low as 0.25mA for Class II appliances, 2-3mA for some IT devices, up to 30mA for devices designed to provide additional protection for direct contact. In practice the latter is most likely to be fitted to domestic circuits, I agree. But what I stated is still correct.

Re PAT testing - the testing is designed to check that the device is not or may not become 'live' (at the time of testing). In this way it ensures that the device is safe. But - it is the device (wiring) which is protected not, directly, the user because as I said in my very first post if you wait for a 13A fuse to blow in your device then you will be long dead. That is why all sensible advice is to have RCDs fitted. In practice the fact that device will not become 'live' without blowing the fuse does provide the user with a degree of safety but strictly speaking the user is not protected by the fuse, ie the fuse does not blow if the user should come into contact with a 'live' conductor.

Perhaps you should read more carefully what I actually wrote and not what you think I wrote.