Citizenship by origin
Dec 13th 2018 | 3:29 pm
#1
Thread Starter
Just Joined
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 7
Citizenship by origin
Okay, please hold fire, I know this may be the wrong forum or website, but honestly, I'm not sure where this is meant to go on the internet.
I'm just wondering if anyone here has had any experience with acquiring citizenship by origin, more specifically "Individuals born abroad with at least one second-degree ascendant of the straight line of Portuguese nationality who have not lost this nationality"
I meet all the requirements, have no criminal record and I can speak/read Portuguese fairly well. My problem is I have no documentation to prove I can understand Portuguese, so I'm wounding what tests/documents anyone with experience has had to produce?
I'm just wondering if anyone here has had any experience with acquiring citizenship by origin, more specifically "Individuals born abroad with at least one second-degree ascendant of the straight line of Portuguese nationality who have not lost this nationality"
I meet all the requirements, have no criminal record and I can speak/read Portuguese fairly well. My problem is I have no documentation to prove I can understand Portuguese, so I'm wounding what tests/documents anyone with experience has had to produce?
Individuals born abroad with at least one second-degree ascendant of the straight line of Portuguese nationality who have not lost this nationality , provided that they are older or emancipated under Portuguese law, are sufficiently familiar with the Portuguese language and have not been convicted, with finality of the sentence, for the practice of a crime punishable with imprisonment for a maximum of three years or more, according to Portuguese law, through an application addressed to the Minister of Justice - articles 6, paragraph 4, of the Nationality Law and 22 of the Nationality Regulation.
Dec 14th 2018 | 11:19 am
#2
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,324
Re: Citizenship by origin
I don't have direct experience of this, but have talked to people who did.
You need a lot of paperwork; really a LOT, all sorts of odd unexpected things.
You can visit the SEF and I expect they'll give you a list [as they do].
But if this is really important to you, find an immigration lawyer, and pay.
The cost will be peanuts compared to the importance of the outcome.
The wrong statement to an official can sink your nationalization plans, and the only way to know where the traps are is to ask someone who works with it all the time.
Good luck!
You need a lot of paperwork; really a LOT, all sorts of odd unexpected things.
You can visit the SEF and I expect they'll give you a list [as they do].
But if this is really important to you, find an immigration lawyer, and pay.
The cost will be peanuts compared to the importance of the outcome.
The wrong statement to an official can sink your nationalization plans, and the only way to know where the traps are is to ask someone who works with it all the time.
Good luck!
Dec 14th 2018 | 7:47 pm
#3
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 6,313
Re: Citizenship by origin
Not quite the same thing but along the lines of.
We have been urging our ED to please register her baby daughter with the British Embassy as a dual citizen
She lives with her third partner ,an American citizen ,who according to their law, had the baby registered as an American citizen almost at birth.
I know we are coming across as slightly mental to her at the moment over this issue.She does not see it as at all important. She could well be right
However her track record is telling another story. Much as I would never wish this relationship to founder,( he is a great guy and a super dad) I could have said the same about the previous two, and she was actually married to one for 10 yrs.
The point being. If it does founder I am not at all sure what her rights would be in relation to her daughter. More important what would her daughters rights be if she isn't registered as a British citizen. Can her father prevent my D from taking the baby out of the country etc.As its America I'm sure he can Might is right there
I have just read a harrowing story from a member of another forum . She was preparing a christening for her new baby granddaughter ,never having seen her since her birth to her Brazilian mother and her son, who is English, The day before the christening the mother and her mother and the baby fled to Brazil. She and her son have been allowed to see the child once ,in Paris ,in the three years since.The child was never registered as British, so effectively end of story.
I know I m blethering on here about a slightly unrelated story, but it shows the importance, later in life of having that all important documentation Good luck Lakx
We have been urging our ED to please register her baby daughter with the British Embassy as a dual citizen
She lives with her third partner ,an American citizen ,who according to their law, had the baby registered as an American citizen almost at birth.
I know we are coming across as slightly mental to her at the moment over this issue.She does not see it as at all important. She could well be right
However her track record is telling another story. Much as I would never wish this relationship to founder,( he is a great guy and a super dad) I could have said the same about the previous two, and she was actually married to one for 10 yrs.
The point being. If it does founder I am not at all sure what her rights would be in relation to her daughter. More important what would her daughters rights be if she isn't registered as a British citizen. Can her father prevent my D from taking the baby out of the country etc.As its America I'm sure he can Might is right there
I have just read a harrowing story from a member of another forum . She was preparing a christening for her new baby granddaughter ,never having seen her since her birth to her Brazilian mother and her son, who is English, The day before the christening the mother and her mother and the baby fled to Brazil. She and her son have been allowed to see the child once ,in Paris ,in the three years since.The child was never registered as British, so effectively end of story.
I know I m blethering on here about a slightly unrelated story, but it shows the importance, later in life of having that all important documentation Good luck Lakx
Dec 14th 2018 | 7:49 pm
#4
Polished expat
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 18,687
From: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Re: Citizenship by origin
I'm just wondering if anyone here has had any experience with acquiring citizenship by origin, more specifically "Individuals born abroad with at least one second-degree ascendant of the straight line of Portuguese nationality who have not lost this nationality"
I meet all the requirements, have no criminal record and I can speak/read Portuguese fairly well. My problem is I have no documentation to prove I can understand Portuguese, so I'm wounding what tests/documents anyone with experience has had to produce?
Given that the law permitting the acquiring of nationality in this manner has only been in force for a relatively short while and that in December last year - a year and a half after its coming into force - no process had been completed, I think you might be unlikely to stumble across anyone on this forum who's successfully completed the process even now, a year on. The only posters on here I'm aware of who have acquired PT nationality are not descendants of a Portuguese grandparent but you never know, someone may turn up
There's a good article here on the Ordem dos Advogados website which mentions the language element among all the other details and does mention the possibility of dispensing with a test but only for those applicants who are naturals or nationals of a Portuguese-speaking country for more than 10 years or who have resided in Portugal for more than 5, so I guess that'll be a non-starter for you. CIPLE A2 seems to be the minimum requirement for acquisition of nationality - whether it would suffice or whether it could be bypassed in favour of something else in this particular circumstance isn't made clear in this article.
Other than that, it does seem to confirm what liveaboard said about paperwork etc although if I were approaching it, I'm not sure I'd want to dive straight into adding the expense of a lawyer to the process unless I'd previously failed to get a favourable result via my own efforts.
Last edited by Red Eric; Dec 14th 2018 at 7:51 pm.
Dec 15th 2018 | 8:18 pm
#5
Thread Starter
Just Joined
Joined: Dec 2018
Posts: 7
Re: Citizenship by origin
I don't have direct experience of this, but have talked to people who did.
You need a lot of paperwork; really a LOT, all sorts of odd unexpected things.
You can visit the SEF and I expect they'll give you a list [as they do].
But if this is really important to you, find an immigration lawyer, and pay.
The cost will be peanuts compared to the importance of the outcome.
The wrong statement to an official can sink your nationalization plans, and the only way to know where the traps are is to ask someone who works with it all the time.
Good luck!
You need a lot of paperwork; really a LOT, all sorts of odd unexpected things.
You can visit the SEF and I expect they'll give you a list [as they do].
But if this is really important to you, find an immigration lawyer, and pay.
The cost will be peanuts compared to the importance of the outcome.
The wrong statement to an official can sink your nationalization plans, and the only way to know where the traps are is to ask someone who works with it all the time.
Good luck!
Given that the law permitting the acquiring of nationality in this manner has only been in force for a relatively short while and that in December last year - a year and a half after its coming into force - no process had been completed, I think you might be unlikely to stumble across anyone on this forum who's successfully completed the process even now, a year on. The only posters on here I'm aware of who have acquired PT nationality are not descendants of a Portuguese grandparent but you never know, someone may turn up
There's a good article which mentions the language element among all the other details and does mention the possibility of dispensing with a test but only for those applicants who are naturals or nationals of a Portuguese-speaking country for more than 10 years or who have resided in Portugal for more than 5, so I guess that'll be a non-starter for you. CIPLE A2 seems to be the minimum requirement for acquisition of nationality - whether it would suffice or whether it could be bypassed in favour of something else in this particular circumstance isn't made clear in this article.
Other than that, it does seem to confirm what liveaboard said about paperwork etc although if I were approaching it, I'm not sure I'd want to dive straight into adding the expense of a lawyer to the process unless I'd previously failed to get a favourable result via my own efforts.
There's a good article which mentions the language element among all the other details and does mention the possibility of dispensing with a test but only for those applicants who are naturals or nationals of a Portuguese-speaking country for more than 10 years or who have resided in Portugal for more than 5, so I guess that'll be a non-starter for you. CIPLE A2 seems to be the minimum requirement for acquisition of nationality - whether it would suffice or whether it could be bypassed in favour of something else in this particular circumstance isn't made clear in this article.
Other than that, it does seem to confirm what liveaboard said about paperwork etc although if I were approaching it, I'm not sure I'd want to dive straight into adding the expense of a lawyer to the process unless I'd previously failed to get a favourable result via my own efforts.
Dec 15th 2018 | 8:27 pm
#6
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 3,324
Re: Citizenship by origin
50 euros? 100?
If you're looking to acquire citizenship, or emigrate, it's a major life decision with enormous financial impact.
As a lifelong 'expat', most of my friends during my life have been expats too. Moving, immigrating, emigrating.
Sometimes it's just as you expect and goes as planned.
Other times, it doesn't. You file the wrong paper or give an answer they don't like, and your application is doomed.
Find out for sure.
I don't hire anyone to do anything for me, I run my own website and clean my own toilet. But there is a time when hiring a professional just makes sense.
I also have a desire for Portuguese nationality.
If anyone can recommend an immigration lawyer, I'll let some dosh slip from my iron tight fist to hear what he/she has to tell me.
Dec 16th 2018 | 8:20 pm
#7
Polished expat
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 18,687
From: Arcos de Valdevez "Onde Portugal se fez"
Re: Citizenship by origin
The OP appears to be completely satisfied with the idea of hiring professional help, so advice well-received but I hope he won't mind me continuing for another post on a purely personal opinions basis in order to answer the above.
I haven't the foggiest how much a single consultation would cost but I imagine you'd be putting the whole process in their hands from start to finish, which could imply a certain amount of to-ing and fro-ing with associated fees for each instance. I suppose to a certain extent it might depend amongst other factors on one's own assessment of how clear-cut the entitlement to the granting (of whatever) is and how complicated a process it might be as to whether you think it worthwhile employing somebody else to do it for you. For me, in a case where the criteria and supporting documentation required are clearly laid out and I knew I met / could get hold of them, I'd have a crack at it myself in the first instance.
The OP didn't actually mention anything about immigration, so it's not clear whether that does come into it at this time and as far as the granting of nationality goes, there's no interaction required with the Portuguese immigration authorities - it's all done through the Institute of Registries, which comes under the Ministry of Justice. In this scenario, I don't see it being a one-off chance with one wrong move debarring you for life from further consideration. If you couldn't satisfy the authorities of your eligibility at the first attempt, I'm sure you'd probably be requested to supply further evidence in support of your application or, in the rather improbable circumstance of your application being flat rejected, there'd be a chance to lodge an appeal (at which point it might be prudent to consider using a specialist).
I also would prefer to be in direct contact with the authorities rather than going through an agent so I'd know exactly where in the process I was at. Any queries etc and I'd have all the necessary references, contacts etc to follow up.
It is very much each to his own, though, of course. Things certainly don't appear to be all that straightforward with regard to the OP's circumstances because one of the criteria for applications of this nature rests on a rather nebulous notion of connections to the Portuguese community. Whether an immigration lawyer is going to be of great assistance in that regard is moot. And all the other documentation is probably just as easily obtained (or can only be obtained?) by the applicant himself.
I imagine they'd tell you that you're entitled to it on grounds of length of residency but that you'll have to pass a language test before it'd be granted.
If you do get around to finding out from a lawyer, I'd be interested to know if they say that isn't the case, though.
I haven't the foggiest how much a single consultation would cost but I imagine you'd be putting the whole process in their hands from start to finish, which could imply a certain amount of to-ing and fro-ing with associated fees for each instance. I suppose to a certain extent it might depend amongst other factors on one's own assessment of how clear-cut the entitlement to the granting (of whatever) is and how complicated a process it might be as to whether you think it worthwhile employing somebody else to do it for you. For me, in a case where the criteria and supporting documentation required are clearly laid out and I knew I met / could get hold of them, I'd have a crack at it myself in the first instance.
The OP didn't actually mention anything about immigration, so it's not clear whether that does come into it at this time and as far as the granting of nationality goes, there's no interaction required with the Portuguese immigration authorities - it's all done through the Institute of Registries, which comes under the Ministry of Justice. In this scenario, I don't see it being a one-off chance with one wrong move debarring you for life from further consideration. If you couldn't satisfy the authorities of your eligibility at the first attempt, I'm sure you'd probably be requested to supply further evidence in support of your application or, in the rather improbable circumstance of your application being flat rejected, there'd be a chance to lodge an appeal (at which point it might be prudent to consider using a specialist).
I also would prefer to be in direct contact with the authorities rather than going through an agent so I'd know exactly where in the process I was at. Any queries etc and I'd have all the necessary references, contacts etc to follow up.
It is very much each to his own, though, of course. Things certainly don't appear to be all that straightforward with regard to the OP's circumstances because one of the criteria for applications of this nature rests on a rather nebulous notion of connections to the Portuguese community. Whether an immigration lawyer is going to be of great assistance in that regard is moot. And all the other documentation is probably just as easily obtained (or can only be obtained?) by the applicant himself.
I imagine they'd tell you that you're entitled to it on grounds of length of residency but that you'll have to pass a language test before it'd be granted.
If you do get around to finding out from a lawyer, I'd be interested to know if they say that isn't the case, though.
