SgtTroy

Has anyone in the UK tried to receive a package from the EU, so that we could compare how the bureaucracy works and what the associated costs might be

No matter how entitled to better treatment we might feel, if Portugal were to be (in terms of services at least) exactly like the UK, but with much better climate, food, and environment, then the price of everything would have been far higher...Better staff would require better salaries, ultimately paid for by the customer/citizen.

The way forward? Perhaps trying slowly and gently to shift the mindset at least as far as customer service is concerned.

Tbh, other than with the occasional glitch with MEO, I can't remember any issues in the last couple of years.
But I do try to use my CMD whenever possible when communicating with the authorities. And no issues at all with online shopping and with other trivial maters.

macliam

I have to say I agree with Midgo, bureaucracy is a fact of life here and the Portuguese DO complain about it, but they are also used to it and few have any other experience, so it gets shrugged off.

Go into any bank, any customer-facing office, and see how many people are actually dealing with the public and how many are shuffling papers or busy tapping at keyboards (not typing, just tapping). When we went to our local Financas, we were amazed to find a young lady who was actively dealing with customers...... until another colleague came up, told her she had to go for a break - and then walked away from the queue of clients awaiting service! Then, when I went to license our dogs at the local Junta, one was OK, but the other I couldn't license because she was registered to SWMBO, who was in the UK at the time.... obviously our address is the same and we have a shared bank account, etc., etc., but no, only the registered owner can license a dog! They would rather the dog remain unlicensed!

Such things exist in the UK too - and generally, I prefer the situation here because there is normally a LOCAL representative (who may eventually solve your issue). In the UK it is all helpdesks and waiting hours for a response from someone on the phone..... as I found out when trying to deal with SWMBOs UK settlement (and she already had 'indefinite leave to Remain'!!) - or recently when my online account access got suspended..... and the only answer was a phonecall to one of those damned "helpdesks"!!

But bureaucracy exists in spades - my FiL always called Portugal "The land of Paper"...... and boy was he right!

toots sweet

Aaahhh ..yes the banks. Have been visiting/living in PT for 40 years and have generally got used to it. When i first arrived and me and Portuguese OH went to the bank I couldn't believe it when there was a queue of people waiting to be served and 2 people were at the counter.Meanwhile (in the open plan banks then)there were at least 10 others sitting flipping papers ,typing, having a smoke/chat,trying to look busy. I was hopping mad,other half just took it in his stride. I always think the Portuguese are some of the most patient and (generally) uncomplaining people I've known. My husband keeps completely calm when I am spitting feathers .We have found that after we have complained and they do the old PT shoulder shrug,i f we ask for their name and then ask to speak to the manager we get a little bit further,though on a couple of occasions they have hung up ,or just walked away and left us standing there!!
I don't think it's all down to bureaucracy. It's correct that the Portuguese don't have much idea about customer service which is down to the company they work for,but it's also a "going by the book" sort of idea,as if they have never been given the notion of "thinking outside the box". The young ones now though are getting the idea .Like they are coming out of their shells.
Yes we have also suffered the long silence with the tapping keyboard . Went to get a quote for insurance. Nothing. Just 5 mins of tapping and silence.No chat ,no smile.You just get used to it.

Midgo

'Spitting Feathers'

I have to say, though, generally service is so much better here these days than it used to be, even State things.
A bit boring actually, everywhere seems to be getting so homogenised

Since this is a thread about Bureaucracy and Mental Health, how about some constructive ideas of how to keep sane under pressure?

What I have found is:

1. Never, ever, ever, EVER loose your temper
2. When you loose your temper, do it properly, don't hold back - you'll feel better and it might even work
3. Do LOTS of research before you go so you pretty much know the job of the person who you will deal with so that you know when they are not doing it properly, or are messing you around so you go away, or even to be genuinely helpful to them and hence yourself
4. Take ALL of your documents, and a Declaração signed in blood by the Pope if possible
4. If the person on the other side of the desk starts to be bulshy, uncooperative, or talk to their colleagues of friends on the mobile over you etc, push back very firmly but politely; almost subtly show that you wont be messed with. I've found that then they usually have a 180 degree change of helpfulness
5. If someone is being a pain, call for the superior. Especially these days its likely to be someone younger and more helpful / competent (I say this as a late middle age person, OK, old person)
6. Know when to shrug your shoulders and just forget it (probably the hardest one to get the hang of)
7. Recognise small signals coming from Mrs Midgo (PTOH) such as a raised eyebrow, and dive for cover (almost) feeling pity for the one who has mistaken her small stature for weakness and tried to mess her around

EU.flag

I would add, same approach should be applied as if you were in UK.
Know facts and be prepare to argue back with facts and not personal opinions on "how things should be".
Without knowing lingo properly, you'll get impression as in posts above, that nothing works.
But that is just misdirected frustration for not understanding culture and lingo.

Midgo

Pois

toots sweet

Mr Flag ..are you saying my PT other half does not know the lingo ? Perhaps that should say Lingua. He has been speaking the "lingo" for almost 70 years and the same goes for the culture.

Red Eric

Off the top of my head, as far as public bodies go I've been to the Junta de Freguesia, the Câmara Municipal, Finanças, Centro de Saúde, SEF, IMT, IRN, and the police. All bar one on more than one occasion, several on many. With one exception, always been treated with the utmost courtesy and respect. Yes, things take a while sometimes and there's often a bit of waiting involved even if you've got an appointment booked, but in my experience, when it's your turn you get full attention for as long as it takes.

Midgo

I want to live up there!
That is definitely not my experience in Lisbon.
South of the river seems to be more humane, tho

SgtTroy

I remember the first visit to Seguranca Social to register there.

Took 15 minutes or so, no issues. At the end I asked about EHIC.

Awkward silence. I explained what EHIC is. The girls responded that I am now registered in Portugal for all intents and purposes, including healthcare, why would I need EHIC?

I tried not to elaborate further, just took out my UK EHIC, showed it to them and asked whether I could get one of these, but a Portuguese one.

"But you already have a British one, why would you need another?" was the genuinely surprised response.

Told them not to worry, went back home and ordered a Portuguese EHIC online via SS portal, which duly arrived within a week

Rambling archer

Love it ! We had to explain chapter and verse (before Brexit of course) on us having S1s from the UK and so needing THEM (in SocServ PT) to confirm things with UK before we could go ahead with UK EHICs ... this was AFTER we had been issued with PT EHICS in all innocence when we first arrived in PT and signed on at the Centro do Saude who suggested we go to the Camara's SocServ office where the nice soul did it straight off with no suggestion there might be another way ! So much unnecessary admin goes on because of errors or lack of informed action. And perhaps PT could save some much needed funds if they get organised for UK (and others) pensioners with S1s to have their Health paid for by the pension-provider-country?

Meanwhile we are still waiting for our first GP appointment in our little rural Health Centre (old GP retired and only got replaced in February this year from June of last year) ... Covid taking staff away from rural Health services, then Holidays, then commitments elsewhere - appointments cancelled at last minute ... our worries are happily "routine" follow-ups so could wait, but yearly checks are now getting on for two yearly or more ... is it all worth it?

Alan PT

The parcels and customs thing is quite a mess (though it was bizarre to read a complaint from a US person, given the USA "tariffs are good!" attitude to world trade), but I've never had an issue with online ordering in PT, or from other EU countries. The absence of family doctors is also frustrating, but not exactly unique to PT and at least here private appointments are very affordable. Banking (with Activobank) I found really easy (and light years ahead of the insane paperwork in Italy to open an account)

It definitely helps to focus on the good things, like how friendly and helpful people are, the great language skills, the way that immigrants are mostly met with a warm welcome. I also really like the fact that there is a focus on fairness and inclusion generally in society - little things like introducing the new affordable public transportation passes, or the fact that health care is available to all residents (OK, with a few delays and paperwork). The fact that PT (a small and relatively poor country remember) is modernising and digitising services (as well as making more things available through the citizen shops) and has an ongoing simplification programme - just think how much ahead of it's time the Multibanco system was (and even now, it's a great way to safely pay online)

When I reflect on some of these positive things, I feel proud of Portugal and very lucky to live here (and that definitely helps get me through the occasional administrative downside!)

Sunseeker1st

m2m2012

Aren't there official or unofficial "fixers/middleman/brokers" that you can pay a fee to get things done on your behalf? I believe Spain has such people and they are widely used.

Sunseeker1st

We use GB InPort owned and operated by Gracy Biss, Ricardo and Liliana. Their offices are at Rua do Viveiro, Lote 4. 3D in Lagoa located next to the Finanças.

Landline 282 341 888 Gracy mobile 965 084 828 Ricardo mobile 966 008 190

We have used the Biss's for over 13 years, residencias, driving licences (age over 70) etc. Friends used them on our recommendation for matriculating cars from UK and Spain.