Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

:confused: Of course it is - it's part of the law of the land. What on earth makes you think the law of the land could possibly be illegal? Surely that's a contradiction, right there?

You're not agreeing with me - I never said, nor meant, that ;) I simply explained that the law doesn't require one to renew the registration and that one cannot be sanctioned for not doing so. In other words, there is no "bureaucracy" issue here at all. Quite the reverse, in fact.

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

Ummmm.......... my comment was rather tongue in cheek or perhaps cynical so don't take it to heart. ;)

But that said, don't you find it rather odd that (at least at the moment) UK passport holders are supposed to have right to reside here (as EU citizens) but also expected to get the 5 & then 10 year Residencias etc? - Because I do.

If it were just a case of registering the fact you're living in Portugal then the fiscal number/document if it shows a Portuguese address achieves that therefore the Residencia & indeed also the Atestado are just 2 extra layers of needless bureaucracy....... To say nothing of needless additional expense.

I can understand a requirement for one document that shows residential status but not more than one.

Then there's the ridiculous bureaucratic requirement that we then need to drag all these ridiculous pieces of paper around with us just on the offchance we might come across an idiot bureaucrat who demands to see one of them.

Personally, I don't have much time for all that BS & it irritates the hell out of me. :(

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

I don't find it at all odd that there is a registration process, no. It's information that is useful to the government in terms of knowing who is exercising their treaty rights, where they're from and where, within Portugal, they're choosing to reside.

The right to reside is not at issue, even if you fail to register. You can't be removed from the country for that, just fined - although I've never heard or read of anyone actually being fined and I'm sure that if it were happening one of us on here would have done.

And, as I said, the permanent (post 5 year) registration is not compulsory, according to the law and to the SEF officer who dealt with mine. That I find a little strange, since it would give useful info about the proportion of people who are staying but I guess they can possibly estimate that in other ways. Maybe all those who register first time round are inclined to re-register when the 5 years are up, anyway?

I know that what goes on in other countries in this regard is irrelevant but frankly, I think it's far better to have clear requirements, as in the case of Portugal than not, as in the case of the UK. There are a heck of a lot of people there who may, at some stage, need to prove that they have been resident by other means, since they were never required to register - and that could prove a bit of a headache unless they're in the habit of keeping all sorts of paperwork that most people might be inclined to discard.

As for the costs, here they're negligible. Have you seen the UK's fees?

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

Actually, barring (now) having to show the initial A4 sized registration certificate in order to register with the health service, I can't thnk of any other occasion when that one might be asked for.

As for the permanent card, it's a very handy document indeed as far as I'm concerned. It's small enough to be no bother at all to carry about - fits comfortably into a wallet, for example - it's accepted everywhere here as id, and therefore dispenses with the need to carry a passport about (eg when driving) and if it's lost or stolen it's a damned sight cheaper to replace than a passport. "Idiot bureaucrats" are just doing a job. There's usually a perfectly acceptable reason they need to see id or ask for a tax number or whatever. I've never felt uncomfortable about handing over whatever's asked for and I have pretty strong ideas on what constitutes unnecessary intrusion.

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

I think it's important that any country has a registration process if only for security reasons and it's also necessary if you want to take advantage of other processes such as car import & licencing for other things as well but as I it, only one process (for registering residency) should be necessary......... so if you have a fiscal document that shows a Portuguese residential address, why then also require the Residencia AND the Atestado? - That latter document (especially) seems to be as much use as a one legged man at an arse kicking party........ I've had mine for over 5 years & don't think anyone has ever asked to see it........ but I'm still expected to carry it with me.

I appreciate the additional costs aren't much for the customer but let's also remember that it costs money to issue the document, pay someone to do it & give them an office to do it in...... it's all needless costs & they all add up.

Therefore, it's all needless bureaucracy & it all costs someone something.

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

I'm not sure why you think you need to carry the atestado about with you. It's a pretty painless process getting one if it is required, though - I needed one recently for something. Can't remember what, now but the resident card didn't suffice. I don't think it's any good if it's over 5 years old, anyway - you'll probably need to get another if it's ever required of you. That'll make you splutter :lol:

It's good for the economy ;)

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

We've obviously had very different experiences but FWIW, we've been here for just over 5 years & have just got the 10 year card & until then I had to carry:

Passport
Residencia
Atestado
NHS document x 2
Fiscal
Motor vehicle tax document x 3
Motor vehicle Insurance x 3
Motor vehicle registration x 3

That's all I can think of for now but there's probably more & the only one I don't think I've ever been asked to produce is the Atestado.

I no longer carry my 5 year Residencia but do in place of it have to carry my 10 year card.

On top of those more usual documents if (for example) one has a firearm he/she has to carry a separate card for each firearm at all times & keep another card with the firearm & when travelling with it has to carry both.

Which is why the easiest way to identify a male ex pat is by his carrying a damn man bag with him to house all those ridiculous documents.

To me, the sensible way to do it is to have one registration & one document or card that carries all or at least as much information as possible in one.

Strewth, the South Africans managed to produce such a document in their book of life´' more than half a century ago so it shouldn't be too difficult for it to happen now.

Incidentally, does the 10 year card with photo now mean I no longer have to carry my passport for anything?

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

Oh & I've just remembered we can add driving licence & IMTT licence registration document to that list as well.

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

You've not needed to carry about the registration certificate or the atestado. You'd only ever be asked to produce either of those for specific purposes - like registering in the health service or getting an EHIC card if applicable or stuff like that.

The health service document is normally only shown when you go to the health centre, dentist or other medical practices.

The 10 year card is acceptable id, so you can dispense with the passport now. It doesn't do for travel outside Portugal, though. You only actually need to have it with you when driving - if you're going for a walk on the beach or something, there's no need. But it'll also do for things like id for hotel accommodation or if you get a senior discount on a rail ticket.

As far as the other driving docs are concerned, you need to have them with you in the car except for the tax doc, which you won't ever be asked to produce - that's now between the tax office and the vehicle owner and no longer a police matter. So it's ownership document, driving licence, IMT registration doc if you've on a registered foreign licence, inspection certificate and tax certificate.

They're pretty much there with that for Portuguese citizens with the cartão do cidadão - a handy way to lose access to everything all in one go. Fortunately we can't have that one because we're foreign.

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

Which takes us back to different experiences.

Pretty much every time I've been stopped by the local cops I've been asked to produce my Residencia along with other documents - but I've no idea why & also twice been asked (by the cops) about road tax on my classic jeep which is exempt from road tax and they asked me to show the exemption letter. - The last time was about 18 months ago so maybe the rules have since changed.

Oh and yet another document I carry is the letter from IMTT that grants permission for a non standard sized number plate on that same Jeep. (Also regularly asked for)

I admit, I have a bad memory & an awareness of cars being stolen so won't leave documents in the vehicle & so carry everything in one bag & transfer it from vehicle to vehicle......... and my next line of defence now is that whenever I'm stopped I explain I don't speak Portuguese & EU law dictates they must supply me with an English speaking officer to communicate with me........ which usually results in their eventually losing patience & telling me to burger off. :rofl:

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

I have to say, I'm genuinely puzzled by that. I have been stopped dozens of times and have never, ever been asked to produce a residence document, nor can I see what they'd want with it. I've also just now re-checked the latest version of the Highway Code, which is the relevant law and it certainly isn't on the list of docs which must be carried.

I do know that occasionally there are operations, usually in the bigger cities, where they sometimes find foreigners who don't have the required permissions but they'd be non EU citizens. And they always have the SEF present for those checks, not just the traffic cops.

The law changed in 2013 and became effective on 1st Jan 2014.

If I was them, I'd tell you that EU law dictates no such thing ;)

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

I think the problem is on you, not the Portuguese legislation that from some reason you don't want to follow and find awkward - and strangely, as I can see in many posts here, Portuguese legislation is in Portuguese! Come on guys...It is for me also sad the way you particularly abuse of the good will of Portuguese authorities suggesting that EU law dictates officers must supply you with an English speaking officer to communicate with when you are stopped, how silly and arrogant this is. I just can imagine the other way around, or if a Bulgarian or Lithuanian citizen was asked to stopped and requests a Bulgarian or Lithuanian speaking officer. Don't forget that this is an open discussion forum and Portuguese people also read your posts...

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

* guy ;)

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

Well I guess it's a good job I don't need your or Eric's approval or permission to lead my life the way I choose to then. :rofl:

Regarding Portuguese or more accurately, EU legislation: EU law dictates that all Govt information & documents should be available in all member state languages at all times & I've posted links that prove that on several occasions...... and incidentally, it also requires the cops to provide a speaker of whatever member state language is required if the person being questioned doesn't speak Portuguese.

Admittedly Portugal often doesn't comply with those requirements but that's what they're supposed to do.

However, my complaint isn't that everything is in Portuguese....... My complaint is that there are so many needless layers of pointless bureaucracy.

Examples are things like Residencia & Atestado where both documents prove you have the right to reside or try registering so much as a small boat...... it took me all day to do mine & even then they cocked it up to the degree that my 3.8 metre fishing boat ended up licenced as a 38 metre commercial fishing vessel licenced for trawls, pots, longlines & rods.

I appreciate some bureaucracy is valid but needless bureaucracy is invalid & utterly pointless.......... As are many bureaucrats. :(

Re: Applying or permanent reidency
 

:confused: I haven't said a single word about the way you lead your life - it's a complete unknown to me.

EU law does not state any such thing and as previously discussed, the links you provided merely state that information on the EU Commission's website be available in all the official languages of the member states.

If you were arrested and charged with an offence it may well be that EU law would stipulate that you must have the services of an interpreter if necessary but that most certainly does not extend to all contact with any of the authorities under every circumstance. A routine vehicle stop and document inspection does not require an interpreter.

As has been repeatedly said, your registration document is not necessary to prove your right to reside - it is merely an admimistrative formality which you are required to complete. And the atestado is a document from a recognisable authority to prove to someone who doesn't know you from Adam that you actually reside where you say you do rather than just being a very occasional visitor. I'd have thought, given some of your other posts, that you would wholeheartedly approve of that, at least.