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2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

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Old Aug 17th 2017, 12:55 pm
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Originally Posted by GeniB View Post
OHMYGOD.. Do we HAVE to travel this way? Bring back the ocean going liners..So it takes a week to get to Portugal I'M GAME...
... ah yes, GeniB,..... but, what about your carbon footprint, your ecological contamination trail, your upper atmosphere steam-smoke pollution not to mention the... Waste effluent slick
.... sigh... gone are the days of innocence

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Old Aug 22nd 2017, 3:17 pm
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Well, well…… it seems that Gloom & Doom Nutty-Steve isn’t so far off.

Brace for Brexit: UK air traffic faces slump without deal, airports warn

But at least there’s One Bright Spot!
Terminal 5 @ Heathrow, & parts of Gatwick, Stansted, & the all the other UK airports can be turned into temporary A&E’ units; - with beds on the baggage carousels and those large luggage trolleys….. See? A solution to the (invented by malcontents) NHS crisis
[I]‘Crisis - what crisis?- Pah ’!![/I]
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Old Oct 2nd 2017, 9:03 am
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Parallel to topic, but the news of the demise of Monarch, makes the oncoming Brexit from the Open Skies Agreement a little more concerning to Brit ex-pats this morning.
Monarch was the last from an era of UK carriers who chartered and badged their own aircraft to support high-volume package holidays businesses. That model, like every other that fails to adapt, has now died. Monarch joins, Cosmos, Dan-Air and Laker as a fond, but redundant concept. A sad day.
So, where does this leave things? The remaining low-cost carriers are having tough times; - we can all read headlines so there’s no need to repeat them.
If you’re one of these carriers, it seems to me that a strategic long term decision is now not far off.
Essentially, imo, it’s this;-
Do you either continue to service a future opted-out location, in the hopes that the sales volumes generated may continue to help carry your operations through, or do you sell your UK landing-slots and use the capital to relocate in either a reduced capacity, or growth cycle, inside a more placid common area where standards are known and where costs, especially for fuel, are in a single currency?
I sometimes think the whole high-risk airline industry is a game of last-man-standing!
From a UK viewpoint, depending on what may or may not happen, a discernible outline now seems to be emerging.
- There will probably be far fewer UK domestically based carriers post Brexit
- Carriers will be more risk-averse, especially to airport landing charge increases;- the risible basis of the UK Govt.’s funding for future airport capacity development.
- Carriers will probably be more focussed with long-haul operations than short, where costs can be equalised over other competition.
- Customers will face higher charges as divergences between EU and UK regulations and practices harden over the decade.
- With changed border controls, costs of delays for ex-pats and more importantly those costs in their implementation, will be passed through to passengers in the form of local airport taxes.
Finally, any assumption that Easyjet, Ryanair, etc. will now automatically scoop up all of Monarch’s assets, especially their pilots, routes & landing slots, is, imo, an overhasty one. It may well be that given the decision above, Ryanair especially, will use current under-capacity to allow their remaining competitors to commit their precious resources to a static, if not cul-de-sac market, leaving them with the flexibility to adapt and see out the current tough times.
For expats, Monarch’s demise may become a notable event.
It would be interesting to have the views of anyone connected with the airline industry.

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Old Dec 1st 2017, 12:25 pm
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

01.12.2017
Breaking (slip-it-out-on-a-quiet-Friday) update
https://news.sky.com/story/govt-to-stay-in-eu-air-safety-body-in-blurring-of-brexit-red-line-11151049
At which point “The enemyWILL now unconditionally nod & roll over without bargaining or argument, because we say so……. just like that...
Absolutely no red-line-blurring or panic-stations going on here then…
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Old Dec 1st 2017, 4:35 pm
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Originally Posted by Assanah View Post
Well, there is a whole big world of tourists outside the EU! Europe will replace British tourists easily with Indian and Chinese. Imagine India with hundreds of millions of people from the middle class with money! What is 60 million British with their declining pound compared to that?
Then where are those "middle class" Indian or Chinese tourists ? Are you suggesting some change EU needs to do for those tourists to visit ?
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Old Dec 7th 2017, 10:07 am
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Relax, the UK may exit the open skies agreement, but I am sure the main man David Davis has covered the impact on the aviation sector in one of the 57 or 58 sectoral analyses which he famously claimed were 'excruciating' in their detail.

He's been on the case for the last 15 months, people say he spends a lot of time at his desk on his own, even late into the night (I heard almost as much time as Damian Green!) so he must have been doing something, surely.

Hang on, what's this?

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-im...dmits-11158899
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Old Dec 8th 2017, 9:55 am
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Originally Posted by captainflack View Post
Relax, the UK may exit the open skies agreement, but I am sure the main man David Davis has covered the impact on the aviation sector in one of the 57 or 58 sectoral analyses which he famously claimed were 'excruciating' in their detail.

He's been on the case for the last 15 months, people say he spends a lot of time at his desk on his own, even late into the night (I heard almost as much time as Damian Green!) so he must have been doing something, surely.
Hang on, what's this?
https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-im...dmits-11158899
... AND he'll just walk away from it, captainflack.
You know that if any business or individual with a responsibility to produce an assessment didn't, saying they couldn't see the point, their heels wouldn't touch on the way inside, or to a civil court. THIS IS A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THE CORRUPT UK GOVT.
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Old Dec 8th 2017, 10:04 am
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

For those who haven’t figured it out yet this is what is actually happening. It was all discussed on bbc last night.

The bremoaners want to scupper the deal, any ammunition they can give junkers etc is very helpful, but think about it, there are british mp’s seeking to thwart the will of the people and incur extra cost for them - is this democratic?.

Any analyses carried out with conclusions informs the uk negotating position, so whatever exists should be kept out of the public domain [ie the mp’s] for now.

Is davis therefore lying to parliament and the analysis exists - yes probably - is this a good thing - yes - is he therefore in contempt of parliament - doubtful as the analysis will be fudged to be named as a specific piece of work for the negotiation, at the behest of the pm / cabinet office, and the mp’s have no right to see it.
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Old Dec 12th 2017, 11:58 am
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

So lying to parliament is ok now? So much for brexitter's precious 'sovereignty' argument. No respect for democratic underpinnings of our entire democracy.

So it's apparently now perfectly ok for a minister to repeatedly claim over the period of 15 months or so that his department is producing excruciatingly detailed analyses of 58 sectors of the economy to reassure the public and business that this is not a blind leap of faith... and then when pushed, by binding vote in the house, to publish those detailed analyses, to admit that he was lying and that they've done absolutely no such analyses at all, and therefore have no idea whatsoever of the impact that different brexit scenarios will have on the economy!?!? That is astonishing.

If any business approached a huge restructuring in such a way, it would be inconceivable that they'd make such drastic changes without having a clear understanding of the impact on their business. It's even more inconceivable that the management could avoid jail time if they'd repeatedly lied to shareholders that they'd done extensive analyses, only to reveal when pushed by legal action later, that they'd been deliberately lying and had actually done nothing.

I am still amazed by the 'faith' aspect of brexit. The religious belief that all the economic modelling and reason-based calculations are wrong. That the goal is so virtuous and lofty, that it's acceptable to lie to parliament, and that the narrow 52/48 referendum result was not just a mandate to leave the EU, but to do so utterly and absolutely in the hardest brexit possible, and that anyone who opposes this in parliament or elsewhere, is a traitor and a fifth columnist, and that therefore it is legitimate and indeed acceptable to circumvent 1000 years of democratic procedure, because these democratic institutions are tools of foreign powers or treachery. It's actually rather scary. At what point after brexit do they try to pop the cork back in the bottle, and decide that now parliament can have its power back again, and the temporary free pass to lie to it can be revoked? Because I suspect as with the Chinese revolution, and most other such acts where the ends justified the means, the cork will never go back in, and anyone who wants it to will be denounced (as you denounce democratically elected MPs) as counter revolutionaries and traitors.

Anyone rational should just think about this. The government lied to the public and to business for 15 months. Why? Why not just be open, and say, "we don't have any analyses, and we're not going to do any, because it won't change our minds anyway"? The reason is because business would be appalled, and would start packing up en masse to leave. Which now the cat is out of the bag, is exactly what they'll be doing now.

Your argument that publishing such information will give the EU ammunition is a pretty clear admission that such analyses would almost certainly be rather negative on the UK's economic prospects.

But do you really think it'd be news to the EU? Would they really need British MPs to leak UK government reports, to know that the UK would be much worse off?

In any negotiation, you normally try to convince the other side that you believe your position is strong. I think the UK knows it's position is so weak, that it cannot possibly try to do that, so it's essentially gone for the desperate angle of trying to convince the other side that it's so mad and bent on doing this that it really doesn't care about the economic consequences. And with people like Davis and Gove up there at the front, this depiction of madness is worryingly convincing.

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Old Dec 12th 2017, 12:08 pm
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Originally Posted by uk_grenada View Post
but think about it, there are british mp’s seeking to thwart the will of the people and incur extra cost for them - is this democratic?
You're asking whether democratically elected opposition MPs in the British parliament opposing government policy is democratic?

Are you serious?
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Old Dec 12th 2017, 12:14 pm
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Originally Posted by captainflack View Post
You're asking whether democratically elected opposition MPs in the British parliament opposing government policy is democratic?

Are you serious?
No, read it again, i’m asking whether its democratic for MP’s to attempt to overthrow the will of the electorate expressed in a vote.

A bit like corbyn after the last election - we lost - but only just - come on guv let us run the place for a bit...

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Old Dec 12th 2017, 1:46 pm
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Originally Posted by captainflack View Post
So lying to parliament is ok now? So much for brexitter's precious 'sovereignty' argument. No respect for democratic underpinnings of our entire democracy.

So it's apparently now perfectly ok for a minister to repeatedly claim over the period of 15 months or so that his department is producing excruciatingly detailed analyses of 58 sectors of the economy to reassure the public and business that this is not a blind leap of faith... and then when pushed, by binding vote in the house, to publish those detailed analyses, to admit that he was lying and that they've done absolutely no such analyses at all, and therefore have no idea whatsoever of the impact that different brexit scenarios will have on the economy!?!? That is astonishing.

If any business approached a huge restructuring in such a way, it would be inconceivable that they'd make such drastic changes without having a clear understanding of the impact on their business. It's even more inconceivable that the management could avoid jail time if they'd repeatedly lied to shareholders that they'd done extensive analyses, only to reveal when pushed by legal action later, that they'd been deliberately lying and had actually done nothing.

I am still amazed by the 'faith' aspect of brexit. The religious belief that all the economic modelling and reason-based calculations are wrong. That the goal is so virtuous and lofty, that it's acceptable to lie to parliament, and that the narrow 52/48 referendum result was not just a mandate to leave the EU, but to do so utterly and absolutely in the hardest brexit possible, and that anyone who opposes this in parliament or elsewhere, is a traitor and a fifth columnist, and that therefore it is legitimate and indeed acceptable to circumvent 1000 years of democratic procedure, because these democratic institutions are tools of foreign powers or treachery. It's actually rather scary. At what point after brexit do they try to pop the cork back in the bottle, and decide that now parliament can have its power back again, and the temporary free pass to lie to it can be revoked? Because I suspect as with the Chinese revolution, and most other such acts where the ends justified the means, the cork will never go back in, and anyone who wants it to will be denounced (as you denounce democratically elected MPs) as counter revolutionaries and traitors.

Anyone rational should just think about this. The government lied to the public and to business for 15 months. Why? Why not just be open, and say, "we don't have any analyses, and we're not going to do any, because it won't change our minds anyway"? The reason is because business would be appalled, and would start packing up en masse to leave. Which now the cat is out of the bag, is exactly what they'll be doing now.

Your argument that publishing such information will give the EU ammunition is a pretty clear admission that such analyses would almost certainly be rather negative on the UK's economic prospects.

But do you really think it'd be news to the EU? Would they really need British MPs to leak UK government reports, to know that the UK would be much worse off?

In any negotiation, you normally try to convince the other side that you believe your position is strong. I think the UK knows it's position is so weak, that it cannot possibly try to do that, so it's essentially gone for the desperate angle of trying to convince the other side that it's so mad and bent on doing this that it really doesn't care about the economic consequences. And with people like Davis and Gove up there at the front, this depiction of madness is worryingly convincing.
Certainly any business would not want to release information that would be detrimental to its competitors, and certainly in this instance in negotiations there are aspects that should be kept private- but outright lying by the government to the representatives of the people is wrong. Why ot have the courage to simply state the obvious- Brexit will not achieve most if not all the objectives of those who voted for it, and secondly will not have an overall positive effect on the British economy, hence the people. Arguments how bad the effect will be are largely speculation at this point.

The obvious responsible and politically courageous thing to do would be to call a second referendum with a more precisely worded choice for the voters, and then decide whether to proceed with Brexit- it is obvious to anyone that Brexit voters expected much more than what Brexit will in the end mean.

Perhaps the madness you describe is simply a negotiating strategy.
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Old Dec 13th 2017, 10:37 am
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Originally Posted by morpeth View Post

Perhaps the madness you describe is simply a negotiating strategy.
... a 'negotiating strategy ????
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Old Dec 13th 2017, 11:59 am
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Originally Posted by 007Steve View Post
... a 'negotiating strategy ????
Well I have been in business situations where the other side acted crazy or so unreasonable to try to were one down to finally agree to something just to move on. I doubt this is the case, but trying to find a logical reason for the inane process that is happening is not easy.

Still waiting to hear any rational reason Brexit will result in better economic growth for Britain, or more opportunities for young people, or the NHS. There may be one but after a few months trying to learn from discussions on Brexit, haven't heard one yet.
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Old Dec 14th 2017, 9:36 am
  #30  
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Default Re: 2019 - UK EXITS OPEN SKIES AGREEMENT

Originally Posted by uk_grenada View Post
No, read it again, i’m asking whether its democratic for MP’s to attempt to overthrow the will of the electorate expressed in a vote.
Firstly, you need to re-read the referendum question. It was simply about leaving the EU. It made no mention of what new arrangement Britain should seek. Brexitters are now twisting it, and using it to justify things that are simply not there and never were. Read it again. Carefully.

Johnson, Gove, Farage - they all frequently cited Switzerland and Norway during the campaign as successful countries outside the EU. Countries that are of course inside the single market and customs union. So it seems entirely reasonable to assume that at least some of those voting brexit wanted a soft-brexit. And yet now, the headbangers are twisting it, and arguing that everyone who voted brexit did so with the desire to go full tilt hard brexit with WTO rules. Sorry, but that is simply not the case.

And so, what kind of brexit should it be, and who gets to decide that? A small group of ministers hand picked by a PM who (in case you forget) went to the polls for a mandate to negotiate the deal she wanted, and was humiliated, losing her majority and having to do a seedy deal with bowler-hatted racists and terrorist sympathizers from Northern Ireland to stay in power? Or the full British parliament, sovereign, and holding a new mandate since the brexit vote to formulate what kind of deal should be instituted?

These MPs you suggest are 'thwarting the will of the electorate expressed in a vote'... are doing no such thing. They're not voting to cancel brexit, and you know it. You're simply using a referendum result to demand they act as a rubber stamp for a government teetering on collapse because the public in a general election stripped it of its majority over it's brexit direction, which it seems bent on pursuing regardless.
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