applied for my E grade
May 7th 2005, 10:56 pm
#16
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,129
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by davepoole
Hi
off topic a bit but as i understand it all nurses are in band 5, thats d to f, while g to I are band 6-7.
I work in AE, im an e grade, on about half way through band 5, newly qualified D's at the bottom and F's at the top of band 5.
we had a problem in our dept, in that for AFC the skill of suturing puts you in band 6, many of the E grades suture, so out dept has taken that skill from us saying it is no longer in our job description. they argued they would have to pay all 15 e grades the same pay as f or g grades.
I do think they have made AfC extremely confusing to make people not fight against it, the whole process of agreeing job description seems very difficult, im just going along with it and looking forward to leaving at the end of the year like a rat leaving a sinking ship.
dave
off topic a bit but as i understand it all nurses are in band 5, thats d to f, while g to I are band 6-7.
I work in AE, im an e grade, on about half way through band 5, newly qualified D's at the bottom and F's at the top of band 5.
we had a problem in our dept, in that for AFC the skill of suturing puts you in band 6, many of the E grades suture, so out dept has taken that skill from us saying it is no longer in our job description. they argued they would have to pay all 15 e grades the same pay as f or g grades.
I do think they have made AfC extremely confusing to make people not fight against it, the whole process of agreeing job description seems very difficult, im just going along with it and looking forward to leaving at the end of the year like a rat leaving a sinking ship.
dave
In glasgow Scotland we still haven't even had AFC introduced!!!!! It been all talk and every date gets put back further and further - we were meant to get backdated pay to October 2004 but that hasn't happened either.
In my case i'm 4.5 years qualified - I get no extra holiday's with AFC whereas my G grade collegue (DN sister) gets almost an extra 2 weeks I think! She is very lazy by the way, so how do you think that makes me feel!!?
Like you the words fleeing, sinking, and ship spring to mind
Lynn
May 7th 2005, 11:09 pm
#17
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 121
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by lynnlovessun
Hi Dave you have been treated really badly over the suturing - one minute you are doing it the next they are taking your skills away from you.
In glasgow Scotland we still haven't even had AFC introduced!!!!! It been all talk and every date gets put back further and further - we were meant to get backdated pay to October 2004 but that hasn't happened either.
In my case i'm 4.5 years qualified - I get no extra holiday's with AFC whereas my G grade collegue (DN sister) gets almost an extra 2 weeks I think! She is very lazy by the way, so how do you think that makes me feel!!?
Like you the words fleeing, sinking, and ship spring to mind
Lynn
In glasgow Scotland we still haven't even had AFC introduced!!!!! It been all talk and every date gets put back further and further - we were meant to get backdated pay to October 2004 but that hasn't happened either.
In my case i'm 4.5 years qualified - I get no extra holiday's with AFC whereas my G grade collegue (DN sister) gets almost an extra 2 weeks I think! She is very lazy by the way, so how do you think that makes me feel!!?
Like you the words fleeing, sinking, and ship spring to mind
Lynn
therfore i get more holiday entitlement. its not much but better than not having it.
check it out
May 7th 2005, 11:14 pm
#18
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Joined: May 2005
Location: Mossley, Lancs
Posts: 25
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by lynnlovessun
Good luck with the interview s/nurse! Take a big deep breath and go for it - they wouldn't of put you forward if they didn't think you could do it would they.
On a different note with Agenda for change D & E grades will be on the same band anyway - I was so proud when I got my E Grade in community last March but am very disheatened that we will be all lumped on to the same band as a newly qualified nurse - anyone else feel this way? I believe that community staff nurses (DN support) are going to be put on band 4 which is the lowest band for a RGN - unfair when you consider that we work on our own unsupported for large parts of the day and that we manage the caseload in the absence of the team leader G grade (or H grade in my case!)
Sorry to put a downer on things but makes you wonder if being an E grade will mean anything in a few months?!
Glad we are off to Oz as the system here is getting me down - its unfair that my 4 years as a qualified nurse aren't recognised until I go off and do some fancy degree.
God what have I started now!!!!!
Lynn
On a different note with Agenda for change D & E grades will be on the same band anyway - I was so proud when I got my E Grade in community last March but am very disheatened that we will be all lumped on to the same band as a newly qualified nurse - anyone else feel this way? I believe that community staff nurses (DN support) are going to be put on band 4 which is the lowest band for a RGN - unfair when you consider that we work on our own unsupported for large parts of the day and that we manage the caseload in the absence of the team leader G grade (or H grade in my case!)
Sorry to put a downer on things but makes you wonder if being an E grade will mean anything in a few months?!
Glad we are off to Oz as the system here is getting me down - its unfair that my 4 years as a qualified nurse aren't recognised until I go off and do some fancy degree.
God what have I started now!!!!!
Lynn
Hi Lynn,
Read your thread and can totally sympathise with you. I am a district nursing sister (qualified in 2002) have worked for 2 years on less pay than an E grade and 1 year on the same wage. With agenda for change I will still be on the same rate of pay as an E grade for next two years (in theory - have applied to go to canada) I work on evenings three times a week (F) no supervision, covering rapid response assessments and managing a team of 20. It just a joke. So you see even having a degree doesnt help!!!Hopefully things will be better when we get our PR.
Sue
May 7th 2005, 11:16 pm
#19
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Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 858
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by lynnlovessun
Hi Dave you have been treated really badly over the suturing - one minute you are doing it the next they are taking your skills away from you.
Lynn
Lynn
Hi,
think how they are going to get round the skills is by 'gateways' at certain points so what you might find is that before you can progresseway you will have thro' the gateway you will have to have aquired certain skills.
Chris
May 7th 2005, 11:21 pm
#20
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 121
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by Chris Mitchell
Hi,
think how they are going to get round the skills is by 'gateways' at certain points so what you might find is that before you can progresseway you will have thro' the gateway you will have to have aquired certain skills.
Chris
think how they are going to get round the skills is by 'gateways' at certain points so what you might find is that before you can progresseway you will have thro' the gateway you will have to have aquired certain skills.
Chris
yeah they started that in st georges london when i worked there. you had a progression agreement, with core skills and competentcies. So these were agreed during appraisals, once you had your profile saying youve done a b and c you could go up a grade, effectively ending the whole interview process. Also you should have to wait for a post to come up, you will progress in your current post.
well thats how its supposed to work i think although it might all be nhs political spin??
May 8th 2005, 10:35 pm
#21
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Joined: Oct 2004
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 858
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by davepoole
yeah they started that in st georges london when i worked there. you had a progression agreement, with core skills and competentcies. So these were agreed during appraisals, once you had your profile saying youve done a b and c you could go up a grade, effectively ending the whole interview process. Also you should have to wait for a post to come up, you will progress in your current post.
well thats how its supposed to work i think although it might all be nhs political spin??
well thats how its supposed to work i think although it might all be nhs political spin??
not sure about the spin but thats how our managers here are selling it, still got to see evidnce of agenda for change in Lincolnshire we've not been awarded it yet still waiting!!!! might get the backpay in time for Oz
Chris
May 8th 2005, 11:44 pm
#22
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: South Wales
Posts: 180
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by Chris Mitchell
not sure about the spin but thats how our managers here are selling it, still got to see evidnce of agenda for change in Lincolnshire we've not been awarded it yet still waiting!!!! might get the backpay in time for Oz
Chris
Chris
This will make life hard for me to keep tight establishment and skill mix control on my wards if the managements and KSF is flawed. and before anybody jumps down my throat, that is my remit, and i have to help the wards stay within budget. So im not going to get into politics here, whether i agree or not is not the point. Anyway as for the Auz system, im worried that progression is by time served. although sounds fair, what about those talented individuals against those not so. Anyway my partner is newly qualified, so i guess it wont affect her too much.
Oh and another boring point on AFC, they tried to bring in the enhancement changes recently whcih meant that instead of getting say 33% for a saturday shift, the nurse would get a fixed % for the year based on the previous 6 months shift pattern. Anyway, here in Wales, when this was first announced, my partners G Grade Sister all of a sudden started working sats and sundays most weeks
then when this new system got thrown out by the Union, she reverted to her 9-5. Of course she never explained anything about AFC to the ward, and my partner knew nothing about AFC...makes me laugh at the hypocracy. Anyway, AFC is generaly a good idea but so fatally flawed. It is flawed because of Human nature, the fact that everyone wansts payrises out of it (and i can tell you now, Accountants wont be getting any rises) and becasue AFC is supposed to be resource neutral, then we have a problem. Of course were supposed to work diferently and more efficiently, but i can tell you know ones intrested in Working differently, all they want (and me of course) is to secure theyre earnings, and rightly so.
Tell you what you nurses must be bouncin the way youre treated, the NHS have handed bucket loads of money and huge pay rises to the Consultants through the Consultants Contract, and Jnr Drs through EWTD for their working hrs, which are based on time sheets which are poorly audited, you think theyre honest haha. Trust me, i see the salaries. COnsultants get a special contract, so do GP,s and Jnr Drs, and Nurses and all other grades have this crappy AFC which wont change a jot, will only make it harder for you to say jump from a D to E. Anyway, rant over, hope i aint upset anyone . Be interested what people thoughts are though? Tony
May 9th 2005, 7:26 am
#23
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Joined: May 2004
Location: Amherst Nova Scotia
Posts: 2,935
Re: applied for my E grade
another comment about AFC is that gp's can have a choice and opt out if they want. I know mine is only taking certain aspects of it and not the rest
May 9th 2005, 9:45 am
#24
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 121
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by tonyclark
Hi im an accountant in the NHS (Booo!!, i know i know) anyway, i have some knowledge of AFC. Most of whats been said above is correct, and D and E grades will no longer be separated by Grades, and as said they will sit nicely in Band 5 I think. Anyway, as also said progression will be through the KSF and a "Gateway" is a natural stop. If you dont develop or aquire new skills, there you will stay, but if developed and agreed by line management (this will be the grey area), then you would go thgouht the gateway. But i was under the impression the gateways were within the bands and not between bands, but i may be wrong.
This will make life hard for me to keep tight establishment and skill mix control on my wards if the managements and KSF is flawed. and before anybody jumps down my throat, that is my remit, and i have to help the wards stay within budget. So im not going to get into politics here, whether i agree or not is not the point. Anyway as for the Auz system, im worried that progression is by time served. although sounds fair, what about those talented individuals against those not so. Anyway my partner is newly qualified, so i guess it wont affect her too much.
Oh and another boring point on AFC, they tried to bring in the enhancement changes recently whcih meant that instead of getting say 33% for a saturday shift, the nurse would get a fixed % for the year based on the previous 6 months shift pattern. Anyway, here in Wales, when this was first announced, my partners G Grade Sister all of a sudden started working sats and sundays most weeks then when this new system got thrown out by the Union, she reverted to her 9-5. Of course she never explained anything about AFC to the ward, and my partner knew nothing about AFC...makes me laugh at the hypocracy. Anyway, AFC is generaly a good idea but so fatally flawed.
It is flawed because of Human nature, the fact that everyone wansts payrises out of it (and i can tell you now, Accountants wont be getting any rises) and becasue AFC is supposed to be resource neutral, then we have a problem. Of course were supposed to work diferently and more efficiently, but i can tell you know ones intrested in Working differently, all they want (and me of course) is to secure theyre earnings, and rightly so.
Tell you what you nurses must be bouncin the way youre treated, the NHS have handed bucket loads of money and huge pay rises to the Consultants through the Consultants Contract, and Jnr Drs through EWTD for their working hrs, which are based on time sheets which are poorly audited, you think theyre honest haha. Trust me, i see the salaries. COnsultants get a special contract, so do GP,s and Jnr Drs, and Nurses and all other grades have this crappy AFC which wont change a jot, will only make it harder for you to say jump from a D to E. Anyway, rant over, hope i aint upset anyone . Be interested what people thoughts are though? Tony
This will make life hard for me to keep tight establishment and skill mix control on my wards if the managements and KSF is flawed. and before anybody jumps down my throat, that is my remit, and i have to help the wards stay within budget. So im not going to get into politics here, whether i agree or not is not the point. Anyway as for the Auz system, im worried that progression is by time served. although sounds fair, what about those talented individuals against those not so. Anyway my partner is newly qualified, so i guess it wont affect her too much.
Oh and another boring point on AFC, they tried to bring in the enhancement changes recently whcih meant that instead of getting say 33% for a saturday shift, the nurse would get a fixed % for the year based on the previous 6 months shift pattern. Anyway, here in Wales, when this was first announced, my partners G Grade Sister all of a sudden started working sats and sundays most weeks
then when this new system got thrown out by the Union, she reverted to her 9-5. Of course she never explained anything about AFC to the ward, and my partner knew nothing about AFC...makes me laugh at the hypocracy. Anyway, AFC is generaly a good idea but so fatally flawed. It is flawed because of Human nature, the fact that everyone wansts payrises out of it (and i can tell you now, Accountants wont be getting any rises) and becasue AFC is supposed to be resource neutral, then we have a problem. Of course were supposed to work diferently and more efficiently, but i can tell you know ones intrested in Working differently, all they want (and me of course) is to secure theyre earnings, and rightly so.
Tell you what you nurses must be bouncin the way youre treated, the NHS have handed bucket loads of money and huge pay rises to the Consultants through the Consultants Contract, and Jnr Drs through EWTD for their working hrs, which are based on time sheets which are poorly audited, you think theyre honest haha. Trust me, i see the salaries. COnsultants get a special contract, so do GP,s and Jnr Drs, and Nurses and all other grades have this crappy AFC which wont change a jot, will only make it harder for you to say jump from a D to E. Anyway, rant over, hope i aint upset anyone . Be interested what people thoughts are though? Tony
Yep this rat is leaving this sinking ship as quick as possible, just hope the grass is greener.
I think i would not like the aus or NZ system cos of the yearly progression, it might sound fair but just think how many nurses with 10 yrs practice experience but still seem dangerous, most seem to have practiced the same day over and over for 10 years rather than develop their practice. Dont get me wrong, we have a sister in AE whos been a AE Sister for 25 yrs , now shes an ENP. Shes great, a massive assit to the dept, great teacher too. But often its the nurses with 3 yrs experience that are in resus, or competent enough to look after the sickest patients. I prefer a progression through bands/grades/pay based on competency rather than years.
As for being shafted by the Govt. well i think the nursing community is kind of used to that one, probably why so many nurses have back ache all that bending over and kissing their a***s goodbye before the next Govt. initiative
May 9th 2005, 2:46 pm
#25
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Joined: May 2005
Location: Mossley, Lancs
Posts: 25
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by tonyclark
Hi im an accountant in the NHS (Booo!!, i know i know) anyway, i have some knowledge of AFC. Most of whats been said above is correct, and D and E grades will no longer be separated by Grades, and as said they will sit nicely in Band 5 I think. Anyway, as also said progression will be through the KSF and a "Gateway" is a natural stop. If you dont develop or aquire new skills, there you will stay, but if developed and agreed by line management (this will be the grey area), then you would go thgouht the gateway. But i was under the impression the gateways were within the bands and not between bands, but i may be wrong.
This will make life hard for me to keep tight establishment and skill mix control on my wards if the managements and KSF is flawed. and before anybody jumps down my throat, that is my remit, and i have to help the wards stay within budget. So im not going to get into politics here, whether i agree or not is not the point. Anyway as for the Auz system, im worried that progression is by time served. although sounds fair, what about those talented individuals against those not so. Anyway my partner is newly qualified, so i guess it wont affect her too much.
Oh and another boring point on AFC, they tried to bring in the enhancement changes recently whcih meant that instead of getting say 33% for a saturday shift, the nurse would get a fixed % for the year based on the previous 6 months shift pattern. Anyway, here in Wales, when this was first announced, my partners G Grade Sister all of a sudden started working sats and sundays most weeks then when this new system got thrown out by the Union, she reverted to her 9-5. Of course she never explained anything about AFC to the ward, and my partner knew nothing about AFC...makes me laugh at the hypocracy. Anyway, AFC is generaly a good idea but so fatally flawed.
It is flawed because of Human nature, the fact that everyone wansts payrises out of it (and i can tell you now, Accountants wont be getting any rises) and becasue AFC is supposed to be resource neutral, then we have a problem. Of course were supposed to work diferently and more efficiently, but i can tell you know ones intrested in Working differently, all they want (and me of course) is to secure theyre earnings, and rightly so.
Tell you what you nurses must be bouncin the way youre treated, the NHS have handed bucket loads of money and huge pay rises to the Consultants through the Consultants Contract, and Jnr Drs through EWTD for their working hrs, which are based on time sheets which are poorly audited, you think theyre honest haha. Trust me, i see the salaries. COnsultants get a special contract, so do GP,s and Jnr Drs, and Nurses and all other grades have this crappy AFC which wont change a jot, will only make it harder for you to say jump from a D to E. Anyway, rant over, hope i aint upset anyone . Be interested what people thoughts are though? Tony
This will make life hard for me to keep tight establishment and skill mix control on my wards if the managements and KSF is flawed. and before anybody jumps down my throat, that is my remit, and i have to help the wards stay within budget. So im not going to get into politics here, whether i agree or not is not the point. Anyway as for the Auz system, im worried that progression is by time served. although sounds fair, what about those talented individuals against those not so. Anyway my partner is newly qualified, so i guess it wont affect her too much.
Oh and another boring point on AFC, they tried to bring in the enhancement changes recently whcih meant that instead of getting say 33% for a saturday shift, the nurse would get a fixed % for the year based on the previous 6 months shift pattern. Anyway, here in Wales, when this was first announced, my partners G Grade Sister all of a sudden started working sats and sundays most weeks
then when this new system got thrown out by the Union, she reverted to her 9-5. Of course she never explained anything about AFC to the ward, and my partner knew nothing about AFC...makes me laugh at the hypocracy. Anyway, AFC is generaly a good idea but so fatally flawed. It is flawed because of Human nature, the fact that everyone wansts payrises out of it (and i can tell you now, Accountants wont be getting any rises) and becasue AFC is supposed to be resource neutral, then we have a problem. Of course were supposed to work diferently and more efficiently, but i can tell you know ones intrested in Working differently, all they want (and me of course) is to secure theyre earnings, and rightly so.
Tell you what you nurses must be bouncin the way youre treated, the NHS have handed bucket loads of money and huge pay rises to the Consultants through the Consultants Contract, and Jnr Drs through EWTD for their working hrs, which are based on time sheets which are poorly audited, you think theyre honest haha. Trust me, i see the salaries. COnsultants get a special contract, so do GP,s and Jnr Drs, and Nurses and all other grades have this crappy AFC which wont change a jot, will only make it harder for you to say jump from a D to E. Anyway, rant over, hope i aint upset anyone . Be interested what people thoughts are though? Tony
Hi Tony,
Was interested to read your comments! Would love to see the salaries of consultants, gps and nursing managers for that fact!!! AFC would appear to be affecting shop floor workers- no change there then.
Because of Agenda for Change I will be working at the same rate as an E grade for a further two years! although I work as a sister unsupervised managing a team of ten every evening I work.
It will be interesting to see what the assistant practitioners are going to be banded as because there are rumours in our trust that they will be in the same band as an auxilliary even though they have just done 2 years at university!!! Cant wait to get my canadian PR.
Sue
May 9th 2005, 2:53 pm
#26
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 121
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by twoshoes
Hi Tony,
Was interested to read your comments! Would love to see the salaries of consultants, gps and nursing managers for that fact!!! AFC would appear to be affecting shop floor workers- no change there then.
Because of Agenda for Change I will be working at the same rate as an E grade for a further two years! although I work as a sister unsupervised managing a team of ten every evening I work.
It will be interesting to see what the assistant practitioners are going to be banded as because there are rumours in our trust that they will be in the same band as an auxilliary even though they have just done 2 years at university!!! Cant wait to get my canadian PR.
Sue
Was interested to read your comments! Would love to see the salaries of consultants, gps and nursing managers for that fact!!! AFC would appear to be affecting shop floor workers- no change there then.
Because of Agenda for Change I will be working at the same rate as an E grade for a further two years! although I work as a sister unsupervised managing a team of ten every evening I work.
It will be interesting to see what the assistant practitioners are going to be banded as because there are rumours in our trust that they will be in the same band as an auxilliary even though they have just done 2 years at university!!! Cant wait to get my canadian PR.
Sue
Hi Sue
the GP's that walk through AE on the way to the Out of Hours GP service often with a mattress under their arms to sleep on at nights are currently getting paid about £130 per hour. heard this from a mate who is a consulatant.
they have their busy times, but most week nights they end up sleeping for half the night, not bad eh i wouldnt mind sleeping a few hours whilst getting paid that much.
May 9th 2005, 8:11 pm
#27
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: South Wales
Posts: 180
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by davepoole
Hi Sue
the GP's that walk through AE on the way to the Out of Hours GP service often with a mattress under their arms to sleep on at nights are currently getting paid about £130 per hour. heard this from a mate who is a consulatant.
they have their busy times, but most week nights they end up sleeping for half the night, not bad eh i wouldnt mind sleeping a few hours whilst getting paid that much.
the GP's that walk through AE on the way to the Out of Hours GP service often with a mattress under their arms to sleep on at nights are currently getting paid about £130 per hour. heard this from a mate who is a consulatant.
they have their busy times, but most week nights they end up sleeping for half the night, not bad eh i wouldnt mind sleeping a few hours whilst getting paid that much.
May 10th 2005, 2:46 pm
#28
Just Joined
Joined: May 2005
Location: Mossley, Lancs
Posts: 25
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by tonyclark
il post some salaries tomrrow of consultants and Jnr Drs. On the point above, were also seeing our Drs put on Night shift at a very high rate, but they kicked off when initially told that they couldnt sleep on duty. We now have to provide a bed and a quiet room. Should there be no call out, the Dr will sleep all night and get paid bucket loads.
That will probably really depress me!!! I also work as a Practice Nurse and know the rewards that GP receive from work that the practice nurse has done!! It seem such a crazy system.
Sue
May 10th 2005, 4:17 pm
#29
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,129
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by twoshoes
Hi Tony,
That will probably really depress me!!! I also work as a Practice Nurse and know the rewards that GP receive from work that the practice nurse has done!! It seem such a crazy system.
Sue
That will probably really depress me!!! I also work as a Practice Nurse and know the rewards that GP receive from work that the practice nurse has done!! It seem such a crazy system.
Sue
Next week I am on my own at work and have to spend an entire afternoon being interviewed by the practice accreditation people for the practice - what am I getting out of it!!? Answer: Absolutely nothing!
Lynn
May 10th 2005, 9:12 pm
#30
Just Joined
Joined: May 2005
Location: Mossley, Lancs
Posts: 25
Re: applied for my E grade
Originally Posted by lynnlovessun
I will second you on that Sue - i'm a DN and we constantly get asked to do bloods on 80+ year old people so that the dr's can rake the money in.
Next week I am on my own at work and have to spend an entire afternoon being interviewed by the practice accreditation people for the practice - what am I getting out of it!!? Answer: Absolutely nothing!
Lynn
Next week I am on my own at work and have to spend an entire afternoon being interviewed by the practice accreditation people for the practice - what am I getting out of it!!? Answer: Absolutely nothing!
Lynn
Hi lynn
God we really sound like moaners dont we?? I am evening district nurse and practice nurse so I moan twice as much!!!! Am getting paid a better wage though from GP job than district nurse job even though I have done district nursing degree!!! NHS will only pay me F grade equivalent to top E and now agenda for change has come, I will be on same wage as a top E for another two years even though I am in charge every evening. That means I will have worked for 2 years on less than E grade and 3 years the same. It sucks. Roll on Canada!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!