Universal basic income
#16
Re: Universal basic income
I'd be careful of cutting IRD too far because you don't want to get into the situation the US with the IRS where IRRC they can generate $8 in revenue for every $1 they fund the IRS. Also if you've ever tried to contact IRD it's not as if their call center is overstaffed, perhaps reallocating some of the staff if they know complicated things about tax would be helpful for us simple folk.
Not long now until us PAYE workers can file actually. It's like Christmas but with money instead of festive knitted jumpers.
Not long now until us PAYE workers can file actually. It's like Christmas but with money instead of festive knitted jumpers.
#17
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Posts: 743
Re: Universal basic income
Thought it was all about means testing, tax allowances, credits, debits........
...in the UK so much time is wasted trying to calculate entitlements then giving people money then taxing them to take it back, then paying housing benefit....
If all the calculations were just thrown away, and everyone was given a basic weekly/monthly sum of money then it would be so much less complicated. Billions have already been wasted on the Universal Credit system. You could have saved the money and just paid it out at a flat rate.
This would. of course, mean that loads of Civil Servants would no longer have a job.
...in the UK so much time is wasted trying to calculate entitlements then giving people money then taxing them to take it back, then paying housing benefit....
If all the calculations were just thrown away, and everyone was given a basic weekly/monthly sum of money then it would be so much less complicated. Billions have already been wasted on the Universal Credit system. You could have saved the money and just paid it out at a flat rate.
This would. of course, mean that loads of Civil Servants would no longer have a job.
#18
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Joined: Dec 2014
Location: Parnell
Posts: 410
Re: Universal basic income
Hence the saving
WINZ staff dropped to $200 per week
Cutting out all the tape does make sense and they are right to start with $200, a figure that will make a lot of difference to those that need it and for those that don't a easily revised paye table pulls it back.
#19
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 439
Re: Universal basic income
Think of the savings at WINZ then, and the increase in productivity in the economy. Win win all round.
Note: unemployment is a government choice. They chose to have 5%+ unemployed as a neolibral policy to drive down wages.
#20
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Joined: Dec 2014
Location: Parnell
Posts: 410
Re: Universal basic income
What about just giving everybody a job that wants one.
Think of the savings at WINZ then, and the increase in productivity in the economy. Win win all round.
Note: unemployment is a government choice. They chose to have 5%+ unemployed as a neolibral policy to drive down wages.
Think of the savings at WINZ then, and the increase in productivity in the economy. Win win all round.
Note: unemployment is a government choice. They chose to have 5%+ unemployed as a neolibral policy to drive down wages.
But there are periods in between where this system would flush out costs and give people certainty of power + food.
#21
Re: Universal basic income
I would not support a guaranteed employment scheme and here is why:
The only way to get employers hiring would be to offer them an incentive, however far from pressuring employers to become more efficient it would likely bring low cost labor into the workforce. This same approach with personal tax credits and reducing real minimum wages for low income workers may have contributed to productivity collapse in the UK.
UBI is of interest to me because it enables social mobility by giving people choices and pushing for higher levels of productivity instead of digging a deeper hole. If this means an employer has to invest/lease in a burger flipping machine instead of hiring a burger flipper the flipper suddenly has other choices like up-skilling or entrepreneurship (making artisan burgers or tevs).
Also if you make this a monetary credit to employers the velocity of money is unlikely to increase as much as giving it to consumers, if you discount an increase in velocity of money the UBI starts to look very expensive (because you won't get that spending growth or tax revenue increase).
However I appreciate tax credits for employers is a very conservative and hence easier to swallow. We already have low unemployment by historic standards but productivity and wage growth (which are intrinsically linked) have been very poor.
The only way to get employers hiring would be to offer them an incentive, however far from pressuring employers to become more efficient it would likely bring low cost labor into the workforce. This same approach with personal tax credits and reducing real minimum wages for low income workers may have contributed to productivity collapse in the UK.
UBI is of interest to me because it enables social mobility by giving people choices and pushing for higher levels of productivity instead of digging a deeper hole. If this means an employer has to invest/lease in a burger flipping machine instead of hiring a burger flipper the flipper suddenly has other choices like up-skilling or entrepreneurship (making artisan burgers or tevs).
Also if you make this a monetary credit to employers the velocity of money is unlikely to increase as much as giving it to consumers, if you discount an increase in velocity of money the UBI starts to look very expensive (because you won't get that spending growth or tax revenue increase).
However I appreciate tax credits for employers is a very conservative and hence easier to swallow. We already have low unemployment by historic standards but productivity and wage growth (which are intrinsically linked) have been very poor.
#23
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Joined: Nov 2012
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Posts: 9,740
Re: Universal basic income
Finland is introducing it.
#24
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 439
Re: Universal basic income
Finland is another Euro basket case (think Greece):
Finland’s problem is exactly the euro! | Bill Mitchell – billy blog
Finland’s problem is exactly the euro! | Bill Mitchell – billy blog
#26
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 137
Re: Universal basic income
I like it. I think we need a fairer system and the current offensive policing carried out by WINZ is costly and intrusive. People should not be receiving different amounts depending on whether or not they are having sex. The current benefits system is clumsy, open to abuse and doesn't adequately support those who need it. People often move in and out of employment based on job insecurity, childcare challenges/costs and sickness. Where this has been trialled in other countries, people stopped work to re-train, become a stay at home parent or start a new business. Some chose to volunteer.
The economic benefits are a reduction in the cost of administering the benefit system and the increase in money supply in the economy.
The economic benefits are a reduction in the cost of administering the benefit system and the increase in money supply in the economy.
#27
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 137
Re: Universal basic income
I'm reminded of my uncle. He has had ill health during the latter part of his working life. ACC would fund him for a while, then kick him out to get paid work, then he would get sick again and be back on ACC, then they kicked him out.... Now he's on super, he is holding down a part-time job and has been working there for a number of years. The stability and the ability to work part time has benefitted his health, and I'm guessing costs the state less.
There will be some lazy slackers, but no system stops that. I was just watching a BBC programme about poverty in London in the 19th century, where the only solution for people out of work was prostitution or crime. If there are no benefits that next best thing is theft for some.
There will be some lazy slackers, but no system stops that. I was just watching a BBC programme about poverty in London in the 19th century, where the only solution for people out of work was prostitution or crime. If there are no benefits that next best thing is theft for some.
#28
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 137
Re: Universal basic income
John Key thinks it's "barking mad".
John Key: Labour's universal income idea 'barking mad' - Politics - NZ Herald News
Although I wouldn't go that far, it must be the first time I can remember that I've agreed with him!
John Key: Labour's universal income idea 'barking mad' - Politics - NZ Herald News
Although I wouldn't go that far, it must be the first time I can remember that I've agreed with him!
#29
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 439
Re: Universal basic income
"A Universal Basic Income Is a Poor Tool to Fight Poverty"
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/bu...e-poverty.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/bu...e-poverty.html