sparkie down under

This sort of carries on from a previous thread. The story is
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/top-sto...erous-driving/
Now I doubt that it was a clear 100m but even if it were the maths just doesn't add up.

At 100kph you are travelling at 27.7m per second! which means from event time 0 to event time impact it a 100m it would have been all over in 3.6 seconds. Most people have a reaction time of just under a second; 0.86 and that is under full concentration with a central view. Outside that area and that time shoots up to over 2 seconds and that's if you are at full concentration, which most of us aren't, (all the time).

I'm not sure of the bikes but most don't have ABS systems and assuming the riders were in full control with sufficient experience to apply a 85%-75% front to rear braking mix, (and don't forget this would have be under extreme panic - so they would have had to be very composed - unlikely) then the braking distance for a mid weight rider and bike would be in the region of 30mps/descending time, meaning that they could expect to stop in a little over 95m. Plus the thinking time/distance of 33m means they'd have been, by this cops own assumption, 28m PAST his car. And that is assuming they had excellent presence of mind, and near perfect conditions.

One word - bollocks.

This cops is a lying prick - why can't he just put up his hands and say" I f**ked up' He does his profession no good, nor himself.

Now who thinks he'll end up getting a slap on the wrist?

hazeandsteve

I remember when this was first brought to my attention on kiwibiker, and must admit that I think he'll be told to sit on the naughty step.
As a biker, my most extreme on road/track/emergency braking is front only, as on my bike, the rear wheel is skipping due to it being in very little contact with the ground. That's just physics and Yamaha's design geometry doing their jobs.
The point the bike haters, and there are a few, have to get here, is that the two guys were not clocked as speeding or committing any other offence, they merely rounded a corner to be met by a police car executing this turn in the wrong place.
Hate me as a two wheeled, ridiculously taxed road user if you must, but don't tell me that this guy didn't do the wrong thing.

lapsed kiwi

Surely the fundamental rule of driving applies here - you must be able to stop in the distance of road you can see. What if a truck had shed its load, or a cow had wandered onto the road, or a tree had fallen down etc etc. If you exceed the safe speed - where you can stop in the visible road - you're on borrowed time.
PS - I agree the cop was stupid, but I think the bikers were at least as stupid as him
PPS - stopping distance for 100kph should be less than 100m

BEVS

I have been on the receiving end of this and can tell you all that it is no picnic in the park.
This was due to an unsecured load from the truck in front.
I can tell you now that an official stopping distance is nowhere near enough. You need a HUGE amount of distance to hope to avoid a flying missile from crashing through your windscreen to take your face off.


I've no time for poor drivers , be they police or dimwit joe publics that think the road code is there for fun and there to challenge because they think they know better. Get 'em off the road if they can't follow simple rules .

Pet hate:-
Those that speed. How selfish is that. You never gain anything , anyway.
Tailgate - Dimwits
Ignore traffic signage - Plain stoopid.

Odd thing is , if they were on the receiving end of an RTA caused by any of the above, they would be the first to whine.

Browner_

Absolutely right. You could encounter an accident, cows, horses, chickens, pedestrians, joggers, tractors etc at any bend, and if you havent got time to stop when you see them you are going too fast. These motorcyclists must have been going too fast.

I really hate it when the police get criticised for trying to catch criminals. Like when a boy racer dies when being chased by the police. The reporting often suggests its the polices fault for pressurising the poor sod to go too fast.

If you want a civilised society, then you have to allow police to do their job IMO, which means occasionally they will drive fast and go thru red lights.

Unfortunately accidents may happen, but you cant just let the criminals escape as soon as they exceed the speed limit.

So its a fine line for the police between just doing their job and acting irresponsibly. If they are obviously obviously negligent, then fine, they should take the consequences.

sparkie down under

Hi fellow biker

I'm sure you are well aware that a motorcycle is in a world of it's own when it comes to steering geometry. Heavy breaking will not only change the weight distribution, but it will also alter the rake and therefore CofG and all of this is done in milli seconds. Meaning the rider has to assimilated- react - adjust - reconfigure - and manoeuvre! and all of that in the next few milli seconds. And that folks is why I would consider a rider of average ability to have a greater understanding of vehicle dynamics than your average car driver.

I'll hands up here. In a previous life in a land, far, far away I used to teach people to ride motorcycles, I raced, (badly:curse and I was also an examiner If you tell me that you only want to use front, well up to you, but we taught to get the CofG down and under control there would always be a percentage rate front to back. Otherwise you might end up doing a stopiee - and just imagine how car drivers would react to that!

sparkie down under

Sorry L K but the difference between a driver and someone who drives a car is the ability to proceed in a controlled and conscious manner.

Driving within the visible distance is fine if you feel that you are unable to control your vehicle under sudden and unexpected circumstances. It is training and experience that gives you that ability to predict and asses the potently risks when rounding bends, (for example)

I would agree that doing 130 around a 30 degree bend in a semi built up area could be considered to be poor judgement. BUT circumstances vary from day to day and time to time. At 2am in the morning would it not be considered to be safer than say, at 8.30am, when the road is full of kids and their mom's in their urban tanks?

I find the standard of kiwi drivers to be a very poor one. As with the UK most seem to think that once the test is passed then that is the end of learning. Not so. I am saddened that there seems to be very little further driver training in NZ. No advanced test, no public skid pans, no open track days etc.

The point I was trying to make in the original post is that the cop made a bad call. This is evident in the distances he, (cop) states. Yet rather than 'fess-up he tries to shift the blame on a perceived bad driving skill group, (bikers), in an effort to save his own skin - SHAME

cleverchap

Agreed in principal but the typical stopping distance for a CAR with four good tyres in perfect weather conditions on a flat, straight, well surfaced road is 73metres.
Not a bike, with 2 wheels, going round a bend.
I too am a biker and I was once subject to just such an event and I too hit the bloody car. I then spent a little time 'relaxing' in hospital.

sparkie down under

Browner - sorry to disagree, but assuming that the police driver has taken some advanced training and therefore has a better ability to handle and react to situations isn't he then endangering everyone else on the road when he engages in a pursuit of a (usually) younger and less experienced and probably frightened - especially when he see the blues come on - driver.

After many incidents in the UK, Europe and US this lesson has been learned and now a more different approach seems to be adopted. One of stealth.

Usually it's bravado with 'boy racers' as you'd put it. If there isn't anyone to rage against wouldn't that person clam (slow) down?

Wouldn't better surveillance and better planing be a less harmful solution.

Sometimes I see the action of some of the police as being deliberately antagonistic in an effort to promote a situation where there is an excuse to use excessive means to bring about a conclusion.

sparkie down under

totally agree. The whole 'thing' with a bike is very different to a car and therefore require a great deal more in skill and ability.

Hope your hospital stay wasn't too long

cleverchap

Oh and if anyone has ever driven a motorbike they will know that as soon as you hit the front brake the bike will stand up and go in a straight line, causing the rider to loose some steering effect, in this case possibly adding to the riders problems and being unable to steer around the car in its path.

There is also a little know fact called WYLIWYG, and it stands for where you look is where you go. The rider, in an emergency, freezes and stares at the object they are trying to avoid rather than trying to work out the best possible way around the object, kind of like the old "rabbit caught in the headlights" situation.
Used to do a fair bit of work on this in the UK whilst working for the DoT.
http://www.ihie.org.uk/gateway/uploa...26.10.2006.pdf

IMO the policeman made a judgement call which he had probably done several hunder times before and on this occassion it went wrong.

Am Loolah

Absolutely agree with you on this BEVS - so imagine my delight on my recent trip to Wellington ...

Lady driver tailgating me to Rotorua, waited for the 30KMPH sign due to resealing the road and overtook me then screeched off ahead - no doubt cursing my driving to the speed limit. About 10K's up the road there she was being issued a ticket by Mr Plod on the side of the road and had to follow behind me at the speed limit again all the way to Taupo!

MrCFD

A cop lying!? What the ?@#$? I cannot believe that!

Genesis

Totally agree!! Alas the above is what waaaaaay toooooooooo many kiwi drivers see as 'just normal driving'.

2 more dead just out of Levin on SH1. That adds to the 3 that died 3 weeks previously at the same spot almost.

cleverchap

I've recently been studying the road toll statistics (no I'm not morbid, I'm doing some investigations on it) and it does seem there are some notable accident black spots out there.