bourbon-biscuit

She didn't say you were You may not have voted for it or been there BUT let's be honest, if you're a Brit you've enjoyed the spoils of colonialism for sure. I don't have colonial guilt, but I do have an awareness that I've lived (in global terms) a pretty charmed life and that's been a result of a lot of murky history that I would not opt for but have benefited from.

Here's what she said, to remind you that she didn't say you were responsible

simonsi

I read that, I was responding as a "British Person" as she referred to. I take your point but, for instance, if both sides of any such happening are constantly referring to what happened 100's of years ago then no-one can ever move on. (Try N Ireland as another example). Current populations are in the here and now, no-one can re-write history...best to deal with problems as they are NOW, because they can be dealt with.

Woodlea

It reminds me of the Life of Brian - "What have the Romans ever done for us" scene.
The whole world benefited from British Colonialism in my opinion....

bourbon-biscuit

Oh I couldn't agree more about moving on! But we can't just go "yeah, we won, we came out on top, now move on people". It has to be a partnership and a shared vision of what moving forward looks like. Dealing with the NOW problems often does require looking at historical whys and redressing balances where possible so that the solution is not just a band aid job that we're leaving our kids to deal with when it falls off. It can come down to simple things like acknowledging that NZ is bi-cultural by respecting and adopting some Maori customs and ways of seeing into our institutions- healthcare, legislative, education etc.

I agree though that it's a bloody frustrating process.

bourbon-biscuit

Swings and roundabouts. And as a Brit, you're sure likely to think that, but surely you're capable of seeing from another perspective?

Charismatic

Why would we want to ignore our colonial past?

Sometimes I get the impression people conveniently forget just how difficult life was in these primitive societies prior to colonisation. I loathe dragging facts into a good debate but the average life expectancy of a Maori person in 1769 is estimated at just 31 to 32 years of age (today it is <70 years), if you ignore people who died before they were 15 years of age, so they weren’t by any means living in the garden of Eden. Overlooking the overall positive implications that farming, medicine, law and industry had on improving the lives of Maori people is incalculable.

Don’t feed me this “British people are embarrassed about colonisation and want to deny it”, on the contrary we should be proud. Yes we made mistakes (both sides incidentally) but the big picture is New Zealand has been a very successful colonisation and continues to be integrated through modes of assimilation into Western culture.

simonsi

But such respect doesn't >need< anything to do with British colonialism to be acknowledged, apologised for or anything, respect is shown by what you do now.

Its kind of like religion, it IS possible to live a good life according to sensible moral values without being a Christian... no offence intended to holders of any religion but I hope you get my point.

The flip side is to use the colonialisation debate as a defence for lack of respect for others, which I think is wholly unacceptable.

Bellasmum

simonsi it isn't about blame although it may well appear so. I am not saying Maori don't blame because some do.
Urbanised Maori who have had a more european upbringing end up with very mixed messages. Some will find their Maori concepts too hard while some will take a staunch stand as would their Tupana.

Those of us with mixed heritage who have sat at the feet of our tupuna and been taught Ti Kanga tend to be able to see both sides of the coin as we become immersed in two worlds.

Many pakeha talk about moving on which is how we tend to see the world. Some would call that hiding the too hard things under the carpet, unresolved so to speak. I see it more as at some point you have to let the past go resolved or not, but to do that one has to be heard and acknowledged.

The concept for Maori I nga wa o mua (from the time of front)refers to the past. The Maori world view is to look in front means we need to look to the past for guidance as that is where we come from.

Maori will debate, argue etc until there has been a resolution. Pakeha may find that very rude.

I suspect that is what may have happened in the cafe when two cultures came together
.
Things that are tapu (sacred ) are kept separate from things that are noa (not restricted.)

Most Maori would fear the consequences (tapu) for sitting on anything that may be used for food but can forget how others may well perceive their approach as inappropriate. First and foremost in their thoughts would be about the consequences of tapu and perhaps utu (revenge), not necessarily from the living but from the dead.

Sadly to understand the concepts of some cultures correctly e.g Maori one needs to be able to think like one.

Bellasmum

Charasmatic, your last paragraph is a perfect example of how one culture can judge what's best for another but what it is they value.

What comes across to me in your post is that you are not interested in what Maori may value, but you assertively and somewhat impatiently want to tell them what they should value. That for European the colonisation of NZ has been successful and Maori just need to suck it up.

That may or may not have been your intention, but that is how I read it.

The Treaty was supposed to be about giving Maori the right to partnership, participation and protection. The problem is the three P's mean different things to both cultures it seems.

By the way I'm pretty sure that the life expectancy in the UK for the same time was not that much different to Maori. Was there a specific reason for choosing 1769 ?

simonsi

Heard and acknowledged by whom???

simonsi

Hmmm, but when aliens land and colonise Earth, they will no doubt say how successful it will be and how in the long run we'll all be greatful. And no doubt a great fight will ensue...

...and 300yrs later the aliens will be teaching their children how well it all went and wasn't it for their own good....

That is the trouble with invasion/colonisation/takeover/power struggle, it always gets looked back upon from primarily the viewpoint of the victor.

Bellasmum

They didn't wait 300 years here. I started school in 1947 and all of my schooling was British focused, including the how lucky we were. Somehow it did not all add up when I saw the tears flowing down the cheeks of my whanau when they talked about how things had been prior to colonisation that they had lost.

And today we still grapple with the effects which make it very hard for some to let it all go.

Charismatic

Which side are you arguing for here? In the former point you outline that people should to partake in acts of cultural respect but in the latter point you are saying that people should have the freedom of choice when it comes to culture.

Which is it, forced conformity or abandoning myth?

Bellasmum

By whoever is supposed to be listening.

I would never, ever have this discussion face to face as I know I would be shut down smartly by similar comments posted in here.

Not all and that's not directed at anyone in particular.

Bellasmum

Is it an argument ? I thought it was a fairly respectful debate.