THR

That's an interesting detail about the NZ electoral system that one constituency-seat is enough to guarantee a party its share of the seats according to the party-list vote even if it is below the 5% threshold. In Germany a party must get at least three constituency-seats or 5% of the party-list votes.

If the UK ever introduced an electoral reform, they would have to make a similar arrangement as the regional parties such as the SNP or Plaid Cymru couldn't possibly get 5% of the votes cast in the entire country even though their share of the votes in Scotland and Wales is significant.

ex_exile

Sorry thats correct, they would need 2 x.83 to get a second seat.

lardyl

yeah I am a left leaner in many things but not in the "family values" and "family centred life" thing - hence I have problems with some of the policies of the left-leaning parties - eg prostitution, cannabis, same sex unions, etc. so I'm a socail conservative.....but I can't stomach the unscientific attitude of the climate-change-deniers in either of the main NZ parties that take that view (Kiwi and Family)......
economically and environmentally I am more left leaning than either of those two parties so could not vote for them really.

Bit of a schitzo politically and morally - some might say a total hypocrite........really a christian democrat (kinda like the DLP was/is in Oz) so probably on the NZ scale I am Progressive cum United Future........

But if I feel more like a Nat on the day than a Labourite I will vote United Future, otherwise probably Progressive (Party votes) and who knows on the actual Rodney electorate????

luvwelly

Times move on (we used to send kids down coalmines too ) ..alas not all parents even middle class ones can exercise your levels of restraint..yes decent parents who slip up in the heat of the moment should not be criminalised but the general idea that a child has the same right as you or I not to be subjected to physical violence is a good one I think.

We are all entitled to our own opinions on these things.....Sweden was the first to introduce anti-smacking in the late 1970s and everyone thought they were mad.....now all western countries have some form of restraint in place.

Also children with (undiagnosed) special needs when younger can be extremely wilful and even violent towards their own parents...(a friend's experience with a child on the spectrum)..she was occasionally smacking him with restraint..once she realised he had issues..she stopped overnight. Violence breeds violence...hence why she started hitting back in the first place.

luvwelly

Interesting...in how I lead my own life I am very socially conservative too but I can accept that others may view things differently and wouldn't seek to stop them unless they were harming others....I probably just wouldn't have them as my best friends.

I really don't think people can choose their sexuality...it's genetic - so what on earth is wrong with them making a long-term commitment to each other and having a right to inherit assets upon the death of the partner......gay rights are just an extension of the rights women were denied for so long really (Married Womens Property Act was a long time coming as well).......if your Christianity(?) is the issue, then there are plenty of folk in the Protestant branches who seem to be able square the circle....if you believe in God (which on balance I probably don't but I like most of the Christian values I was brought up with) then surely he created gay people too....if you don't have one to compare with, how can you recognise the other..both states of humanity exist.

Prostitution is harder because it's clearly not a good way to lead your life from a self-esteem point of view and I would agree re that recent case that the teacher working as a prostitute should forfeit her right to be a teacher of my kids even though technically what she is doing is legal... a teacher should not bring their profession into disrepute....it has probably only been made legal as an experiment to prevent the Pimps cashing in/violence stuff.....it's the oldest profession in the world..you are never going to stop it.

Sounds like you'd fit in well in USA where voters who returned Obama also voted against same sex civil unions at the same time....makes no sense to me really...this is in places where they already have that right.

If the only thing stopping you voting Green is cannabis (I have never touched any such drug personally) ....I'd recommend maybe overlooking that...at least they stand a chance of reaching the 5% threshold.....it's a bit idealistic in today's complex world to expect to find a political party with whom you totally agree on every single thing...don't forget there are shades of opinion within parties as well.

I would say the Progressive Party is to the left of Labour but I have no idea how many seats they currently hold and can't be bothered to google it. Like I said if you know you are never going to actually form the Government you can promise 'pie in the sky' and all kinds of contradictory things which won't work out in reality.

luvwelly

Curiosity got the better of me: the progressive party has one seat!
This link gives the full breakdown....as I thought it is really a two party race.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zea...election,_2005

Batty

I also believe everything you've written above (I've got a gay sister who would love to have the right to a civil union with her partner but it's not been passed so far in Ireland) and yet I'm a National supporter I believe that National is closer in idealology to the Democrats than Labour is and I've lived and benefitted under such a Government for most of my life. It's more inclusive than Labour is. They believe that there is opportunity for everyone instead of perpetuating a belief that because you're doing what your family has always done then you'll do the same. I want to see people have a bit of pride. The only reason John Key has millions is because he worked bloody hard for it - he did grow up in a council house with a single parent - those are facts and I don't care how well off they were it takes guts to overcome that. Especially when he would have been a child. The 60s were only swinging in a very few countries!

I don't believe in handouts - which was Helen's answer to the economic crisis - they couldn't keep away from the word 'dole' whereas I felt National's was more practical.

I agree with Lardyl on the smacking bill - it's like the dog chipping bill - there are still huge numbers (can't be bothered to Google but like you probably will later on ) of dogs classed as dangerous who are unchipped.

I actually quite dislike Labour - not just here but I also hated living under the UK's Labour.

20 years ago I'd have agreed with everything they were saying but when PC took over they just lost the plot IMO I've always been on the side of the underdog but sometimes the underdog is well able to fight his own fight. And sometimes he doesn't even see anything to fight about. I read an article a few years ago about Rudolph Walker from Love Thy Neighbour - he thinks it's still funny, and yet it can't be shown anymore because..... someone got offended on his behalf.

chocolate cake

If I had a vote it certainly wouldn't be Labour. They've wasted the good years and haven't made any progress internationally.
Labour hardly acted quick in regard to the world financial crisis, they simply followed the Aussies. And for Helen Clark to campaign on trust is ridiculous given that she should have got rid of Peters months ago.

John Key's far from the richest man in NZ, but to criticise him for being rich is absolutely ridiculous he's very much a self made man, he came from a poor family background and wasn't born with a silver spoon in his mouth.

A vote for one of the 'fringe' parties, isn't a wasted vote, many of the fringe parties will get seats based on the fact they're likely to gain one elected seat (with the exception of WP and NZ First).
The greens will likely get seats based on their national share, but they're policies are barely costed.

luvwelly

Yes sorry you are correct he would be the richest ever PM if elected...he only just squeaked in on the 'NZ Rich List' with NZ$50m according to this link: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10523405

I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, just that people should be aware of it... You could argue it means he doesn't need the job and therefore will be able to take a very independent line on everything....
anyway the latest polls look like Key will win....I hope it won't be like the UK 1980s all over again....I can understand people wanting a change of government after 9 years...that's the beauty of democracy after all, that you can change the government.

lardyl

yeah, speaking to Kiwis about this to try and understand what politics is all about I found out a couple of things:

the 80s thing - ie sort out the unions, etc was done by left-leaners who followed on from a Nat govt. and had to straighten it all out, these people are now with ACT, strikes me they are like the SDP who split from Labour and lurched much further to the right......

the Pomms who came over in the 50s and 60s got into the unions and some Kiwis will say they destroyed many of the manufacturing industries here - bit like Red Ken and British Leyland, this explains why some Kiwis are so anti-Pomm, we came over, agitated the unions and lost them 1000s of jobs, then apparently turned around and said "moral victory"......

Being a true social conservative means that you believe in the state doing something to take a moral stand and put the values into action in policy - don't get me wrong, IMHO anyway, I'm not a homophobic gay basher, just someone who doesn't want the likes of Tatchel involved in educating our kids and making policy.....maybe to some that makes me one, well then so be it......

As far as smacking goes I am convinced that physical punishment does more harm than good to most kids most of the time but that the threat of it and some judicious use of "reasonable restraint" can be a useful tool in the "armoury" of some parents.

Having said that the number of Kiwis I know of age 30 to 50 who were beaten with 2by4, hose, and even work tools is pretty shocking........and that is child abuse, not excusable and just makes them more likely to come out with kids that are abusers themselves. Not good. Maybe we don't have the best legislation to deal with it but it is pretty close.... and the "devil" is in the actual "application" by the Police, CPS, etc.

Now legal prostitution is another thing as are some of the proposed laws on drugs...........that's where I am not on the left-leaning side.........so can't vote green, etc

luvwelly

Hi Batty
Glad we agree on something...I'm sure you're a very nice lady....there was an episode of Love Thy Neighbour I remember where the white guy voted Labour and Rudolph Walker's character was voting Tory...the irony of that was not lost on the audience at the time I'm sure......is this un PC enough for you..does have some relevance to thread - my OH just forwarded it...before anyone moans, the Brits get stereotyped as well: I particularly like the ENRON Venture capitalism description...they need an extra one for sub-prime loans and the mess they have just got us all into.
Cheers
Luvwelly
PS Lardyl - thanks also for the further clarification.

SOCIALISM

You have 2 cows.

You give one to your neighbor.


COMMUNISM

You have 2 cows.

The State takes both and gives you some milk.


FASCISM

You have 2 cows.

The State takes both and sells you some milk.


NAZISM

You have 2 cows.

The State takes both and shoots you.


BUREAUCRATISM

You have 2 cows.

The State takes both, shoots one, milks the other, and then
throws the milk away...


TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM

You have two cows.

You sell one and buy a bull.

Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows.

You sell them and retire on the income.


SURREALISM

You have two giraffes.

The government requires you to take harmonica lessons


AN AMERICAN CORPORATION

You have two cows.

You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of
four cows.

Later, you hire a consultant to analyse why the cow has
dropped dead.


ENRON VENTURE CAPITALISM

You have two cows.

You sell three of them to your publicly listed company,
using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank,
then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated

general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a
tax exemption for five cows.

The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an
intermediary to a Cayman Island

Company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who
sells the rights to all seven

cows back to your listed company. The annual report says
the company owns eight cows,

with an option on one more. You sell one cow to buy a new
president of the United States,

leaving you with nine cows. No balance sheet provided with
the release.

The public then buys your bull.


A FRENCH CORPORATION

You have two cows.

You go on strike, organise a riot, and block the roads,
because you want three cows.


A JAPANESE CORPORATION

You have two cows.

You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an
ordinary cow and produce twenty

times the milk. You then create a clever cow cartoon image
called 'Cowkimon' and market it worldwide.


A GERMAN CORPORATION

You have two cows.

You re-engineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a
month, and milk themselves.


AN ITALIAN CORPORATION

You have two cows, but you don't know where they are.

You decide to have lunch.


A RUSSIAN CORPORATION

You have two cows.

You count them and learn you have five cows.

You count them again and learn you have 42 cows.

You count them again and learn you have 2 cows.

You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.


A SWISS CORPORATION

You have 5000 cows. None of them belong to you.

You charge the owners for storing them.


A CHINESE CORPORATION

You have two cows.

You have 300 people milking them.

You claim that you have full employment, and high bovine
productivity.

You arrest the newsman who reported the real situation.


AN INDIAN CORPORATION

You have two cows.

You worship them.


A BRITISH CORPORATION

You have two cows.
Both are mad.


AN IRAQI CORPORATION

Everyone thinks you have lots of cows.

You tell them that you have none.

No-one believes you, so they bomb the **** out of you and
invade your country.

You still have no cows, but at least now you are part of
Democracy....


AN AUSTRALIAN CORPORATION

You have two cows.
Business seems pretty good.
You close the office and go for a few beers to celebrate.


A NEW ZEALAND CORPORATION

You have two cows.

The one on the left looks very attractive.

lardyl

hope we're still laughing on Sunday

luvwelly

Yes, please feel sorry for me...I have a 'function' to attend tonight and I'm really looking forward (not) to being surrounded by folk going on about how marvellous it will be if John Key gets elected....happily a 'National' car cavalcade drove along Lambton Quay this afternoon and seemed to get a very lacklustre response from pedestrians - they were tooting and didn't get a single wave back and this was in the lunchhour.

You've got to admire the Kiwi ingenuity and 'cheapness' of human posters who stand on the Basin Reserve holding placards in the morning rush hour and evening....don't ever recall that in UK....do they do it in Auckland too?

lardyl

oh yeah - there are plenty for Pizza - the joys of cheap labour......
drove past a National when on one on one of the Northern M/Way bridges last night...
most of my Kiwi mates are mad for National, but not all, the latter are a bit quieter about it - almost embarassed...........
I think I am going to go progressive with the Party vote..........but I might vote for Dunne anyway as he has been known to change sides after elections (allegedly!!).....

Bellasmum

Yes this election the Nats especially have been out with their placards in full force in Jafaland. In Ngappipi Road (off the Auckland waterfront) there have been hundreds of National posters on the side of the road about three feet apart.

The National party is full of MP's that have been around for years. If the Nats get in they will dimp JK within 2 years. They go through leaders like you wouldn't believe.