Discriminating New Zealand?
#1
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Joined: Apr 2003
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Discriminating New Zealand?
Hi
Don't know if any other posters living in NZ have any observations on this but I think discrimination against non nationals is very much alive and everywhere here.
I've gotten use to the lines at the bottom of most job ads - 'new zealand residents and nationals can only apply', i've even gotten use to fact that a lot of employers won't even touch you now with a work permit as they don't won't to recruit staff they may have to sponsor at the end of the permit - and this they really don't want the hassle of having to do.
Recently, after a long struggle, I got a work permit thinking that finally I could work and yet again the goal posts have been moved.
But yesterday, while checking out a course to do for fun at the local Community College - Guitar for beginners to be precise, I came across this little nugget:
"Overseas Visitors: Non-permanent residents may enrol in courses if there are spaces available but will be charged an additional fee. Please check with the Community Education Centre for more information"
Now, okay, they tell me the spaces are not allocated on a first come first served basis but rather are allocated on the basis of nz residency, then, and only then, if there are any spaces free for non-residents I must pay more. And all for one hour a week for 6 weeks.
On the following page they state one of their goals is "to recognise migrants and refugees as an integral part of the community and offer courses which facilitate their participation in the community"
At a price it seems.
Now, please don't think this is sour grapes - my success here is totally dependant on me and I realise that. The point I am making is the quite regularly I come across a hostile attitude towards non-kiwi's and am now seriously thinking of not settling here even if I do get a job. New Zealand is far from multi-cultural and it shows. I don't think it wants to be either.
Don't know if any other posters living in NZ have any observations on this but I think discrimination against non nationals is very much alive and everywhere here.
I've gotten use to the lines at the bottom of most job ads - 'new zealand residents and nationals can only apply', i've even gotten use to fact that a lot of employers won't even touch you now with a work permit as they don't won't to recruit staff they may have to sponsor at the end of the permit - and this they really don't want the hassle of having to do.
Recently, after a long struggle, I got a work permit thinking that finally I could work and yet again the goal posts have been moved.
But yesterday, while checking out a course to do for fun at the local Community College - Guitar for beginners to be precise, I came across this little nugget:
"Overseas Visitors: Non-permanent residents may enrol in courses if there are spaces available but will be charged an additional fee. Please check with the Community Education Centre for more information"
Now, okay, they tell me the spaces are not allocated on a first come first served basis but rather are allocated on the basis of nz residency, then, and only then, if there are any spaces free for non-residents I must pay more. And all for one hour a week for 6 weeks.
On the following page they state one of their goals is "to recognise migrants and refugees as an integral part of the community and offer courses which facilitate their participation in the community"
At a price it seems.
Now, please don't think this is sour grapes - my success here is totally dependant on me and I realise that. The point I am making is the quite regularly I come across a hostile attitude towards non-kiwi's and am now seriously thinking of not settling here even if I do get a job. New Zealand is far from multi-cultural and it shows. I don't think it wants to be either.
#3
Hold on a minute here! This is standard practice for the vast majority of educational establishments / courses in New Zealand. NZ citizens and residents pay less because these courses are subsidised by the government. It is totally reasonable to expect non-residents to pay the full course fee. Why should the NZ taxpayer pay for the education of those other than its own?
Remember that a work permit is only a temporary permit. When you get PR then you will be entitled to courses at the cheaper rate. I appreciate that the OP's guitar course isn't much in the big scheme of things - however where do you draw the line? Should the NZ taxpayer pay for the education of the many thousands of asian students who come here every year to learn english, and then go back home?
People shouldn't come to NZ and expect a free lunch!
Russ.
Remember that a work permit is only a temporary permit. When you get PR then you will be entitled to courses at the cheaper rate. I appreciate that the OP's guitar course isn't much in the big scheme of things - however where do you draw the line? Should the NZ taxpayer pay for the education of the many thousands of asian students who come here every year to learn english, and then go back home?
People shouldn't come to NZ and expect a free lunch!
Russ.
#4
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Joined: Apr 2003
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Hi BritboyNZ
Yes it is common for many educational establishments to charge non residents a higher fee. This does not simply apply to NZ but world wide. However for a non resident to study here on a study permit the course must be full-time and, I am open to correction, but most courses non-residents attend in NZ offer recognised accreditation and are therefore valuable not only in NZ but world wide, hence a reason, though not necessarily a justification for the increase in cost for non-kiwi's.
The course I wanted to apply for is not accredited, but a 'fun' evening course where I hoped to get to know more people and learn the guitar. I don't think the NZIS will award me any extra points for its successful completion.
I do not expect a 'free lunch' here; my partner pays NZ taxes (and I hope to too) and we contribute to the economy here. What I regret is that as a non-kiwi I am not made welcome under the same terms as everyone else. I just cannot imagine a kiwi, or anyone else, being told they had to pay extra to learn the guitar in my old local Woolwich community college. I would be totally disgusted if I discovered that to be the case and I really don't think it is. So, in a way this example is a big thing in the scheme of things because it highlights an attitude that affects the way non-kiwi's are treated here. Yes if I had PR none of this would be an issue for me but it would for someone else - it's just plain wrong and discriminatory.
Yes it is common for many educational establishments to charge non residents a higher fee. This does not simply apply to NZ but world wide. However for a non resident to study here on a study permit the course must be full-time and, I am open to correction, but most courses non-residents attend in NZ offer recognised accreditation and are therefore valuable not only in NZ but world wide, hence a reason, though not necessarily a justification for the increase in cost for non-kiwi's.
The course I wanted to apply for is not accredited, but a 'fun' evening course where I hoped to get to know more people and learn the guitar. I don't think the NZIS will award me any extra points for its successful completion.
I do not expect a 'free lunch' here; my partner pays NZ taxes (and I hope to too) and we contribute to the economy here. What I regret is that as a non-kiwi I am not made welcome under the same terms as everyone else. I just cannot imagine a kiwi, or anyone else, being told they had to pay extra to learn the guitar in my old local Woolwich community college. I would be totally disgusted if I discovered that to be the case and I really don't think it is. So, in a way this example is a big thing in the scheme of things because it highlights an attitude that affects the way non-kiwi's are treated here. Yes if I had PR none of this would be an issue for me but it would for someone else - it's just plain wrong and discriminatory.
Originally posted by BritboyNZ
Hold on a minute here! This is standard practice for the vast majority of educational establishments / courses in New Zealand. NZ citizens and residents pay less because these courses are subsidised by the government. It is totally reasonable to expect non-residents to pay the full course fee. Why should the NZ taxpayer pay for the education of those other than its own?
Remember that a work permit is only a temporary permit. When you get PR then you will be entitled to courses at the cheaper rate. I appreciate that the OP's guitar course isn't much in the big scheme of things - however where do you draw the line? Should the NZ taxpayer pay for the education of the many thousands of asian students who come here every year to learn english, and then go back home?
People shouldn't come to NZ and expect a free lunch!
Russ.
Hold on a minute here! This is standard practice for the vast majority of educational establishments / courses in New Zealand. NZ citizens and residents pay less because these courses are subsidised by the government. It is totally reasonable to expect non-residents to pay the full course fee. Why should the NZ taxpayer pay for the education of those other than its own?
Remember that a work permit is only a temporary permit. When you get PR then you will be entitled to courses at the cheaper rate. I appreciate that the OP's guitar course isn't much in the big scheme of things - however where do you draw the line? Should the NZ taxpayer pay for the education of the many thousands of asian students who come here every year to learn english, and then go back home?
People shouldn't come to NZ and expect a free lunch!
Russ.
#5
You are absolutely right NZIS dont give extra points for 'fun' courses. There would be a national outrage if basket weaving for beginners awarded 10 points towards PR. Winston Peters would win the next general election with a landslide majority if that was the case.
I'm sorry - but you do seem to be whinging a bit here. Subsidised education is one of the privilidges of PR/Citizenship - it has nothing to do with discriminating against foreigners. When you become one of 'the locals' you will be entitled to cheaper courses. It is as simple as that.
You will probably find that Woolwich College would infact charge a higher fee for a non resident. I enrolled on a British Sign Language Course a good few years ago at Lichfield College, one of the guys on the course had to pay higher fees (he was in the UK on a working holiday visa) so the same principle is applied, as you say, in many countries worldwide.
Russ.
I'm sorry - but you do seem to be whinging a bit here. Subsidised education is one of the privilidges of PR/Citizenship - it has nothing to do with discriminating against foreigners. When you become one of 'the locals' you will be entitled to cheaper courses. It is as simple as that.
You will probably find that Woolwich College would infact charge a higher fee for a non resident. I enrolled on a British Sign Language Course a good few years ago at Lichfield College, one of the guys on the course had to pay higher fees (he was in the UK on a working holiday visa) so the same principle is applied, as you say, in many countries worldwide.
Russ.
#6
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Originally posted by yabba
......Yes if I had PR none of this would be an issue for me but it would for someone else - it's just plain wrong and discriminatory.
......Yes if I had PR none of this would be an issue for me but it would for someone else - it's just plain wrong and discriminatory.
No need for me to repeat what Russ has said, so just read all the above again!
#7
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 3
nz
Mmmm
I can understand where yabba is coming from. As much as I love it in NZ I have had negative experiences with regard to being from another country.
A few months ago I went to join a net ball club, I was told straight up that non-kiwi's were not wanted at the club; the explanation was that 'backpackers' often left the club mid-season. I'm not a backpacker though to me such a term is not a slur, as it often used as here. I also work for a government office with over 250 staff and I am the only non-kiwi, I find that a bit odd.
I think yabba should be able to sign up for a community college course and pay the same as everyone else - why not? So what if the course is subsidised (and we don't know that it is), a bit of international friendless please. I hope you get to do the course yabba.
I can understand where yabba is coming from. As much as I love it in NZ I have had negative experiences with regard to being from another country.
A few months ago I went to join a net ball club, I was told straight up that non-kiwi's were not wanted at the club; the explanation was that 'backpackers' often left the club mid-season. I'm not a backpacker though to me such a term is not a slur, as it often used as here. I also work for a government office with over 250 staff and I am the only non-kiwi, I find that a bit odd.
I think yabba should be able to sign up for a community college course and pay the same as everyone else - why not? So what if the course is subsidised (and we don't know that it is), a bit of international friendless please. I hope you get to do the course yabba.
#8
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Discriminating new Zealand
It's unfortunate that a poster cannot voice an opinion without being accused of whinging.
I think you will find that your Signing course was accredited - I mentioned this distinction when it came to fees earlier.
New Zealand is a great country for many reasons but in my view it is not particularly welcoming to foreigners. I will peruse the matter regarding the course with the college. Charging non residents extra for evening courses is petty and divisive.
I think you will find that your Signing course was accredited - I mentioned this distinction when it came to fees earlier.
New Zealand is a great country for many reasons but in my view it is not particularly welcoming to foreigners. I will peruse the matter regarding the course with the college. Charging non residents extra for evening courses is petty and divisive.
#9
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Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 730
Re: nz
Originally posted by dove
Mmmm
I can understand where yabba is coming from. As much as I love it in NZ I have had negative experiences with regard to being from another country.
A few months ago I went to join a net ball club, I was told straight up that non-kiwi's were not wanted at the club; the explanation was that 'backpackers' often left the club mid-season. I'm not a backpacker though to me such a term is not a slur, as it often used as here. I also work for a government office with over 250 staff and I am the only non-kiwi, I find that a bit odd.
I think yabba should be able to sign up for a community college course and pay the same as everyone else - why not? So what if the course is subsidised (and we don't know that it is), a bit of international friendless please. I hope you get to do the course yabba.
Mmmm
I can understand where yabba is coming from. As much as I love it in NZ I have had negative experiences with regard to being from another country.
A few months ago I went to join a net ball club, I was told straight up that non-kiwi's were not wanted at the club; the explanation was that 'backpackers' often left the club mid-season. I'm not a backpacker though to me such a term is not a slur, as it often used as here. I also work for a government office with over 250 staff and I am the only non-kiwi, I find that a bit odd.
I think yabba should be able to sign up for a community college course and pay the same as everyone else - why not? So what if the course is subsidised (and we don't know that it is), a bit of international friendless please. I hope you get to do the course yabba.
I'll be in the same position, unless I get PR first, but totally understand why I'll be facing this 'discrimination'. We all want an easy life, given on a plate etc., but we have to earn our rights first.
Gra..
#10
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Joined: Mar 2003
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Re: Discriminating new Zealand
Originally posted by yabba
.....Charging non residents extra for evening courses is petty and divisive.
.....Charging non residents extra for evening courses is petty and divisive.
#11
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Re: Discriminating new Zealand
Originally posted by Gra.B
The residents have already paid their way through taxes, you haven't!
The residents have already paid their way through taxes, you haven't!
Also someone with PR could enter this country without ever having paid tax here and sign up for an evening course at the standard rate, so you see Gra. B this isn't about tax or subsidy and "earning rights" it's about being a resident or national. If it was about earning rights by paying taxes people working on work permits or whv would not be charged extra and put to the back of the queue...but they are...
#12
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Re: Discriminating new Zealand
Originally posted by yabba
I have paid a considerable amount of tax since arriving here. My partner is also paying income tax however if she wanted to sign up for an evening course she too would have to pay extra as a non-resident.
Also someone with PR could enter this country without ever having paid tax here and sign up for an evening course at the standard rate, so you see Gra. B this isn't about tax or subsidy and "earning rights" it's about being a resident or national. If it was about earning rights by paying taxes people working on work permits or whv would not be charged extra and put to the back of the queue...but they are...
I have paid a considerable amount of tax since arriving here. My partner is also paying income tax however if she wanted to sign up for an evening course she too would have to pay extra as a non-resident.
Also someone with PR could enter this country without ever having paid tax here and sign up for an evening course at the standard rate, so you see Gra. B this isn't about tax or subsidy and "earning rights" it's about being a resident or national. If it was about earning rights by paying taxes people working on work permits or whv would not be charged extra and put to the back of the queue...but they are...
I guess it's all about attitude, I don't expect any favours, they don't owe me anything.
In the mean time, if that's all there is to worry about then great!
I'll just buy a book & teach myself!
Cheers...Gra
#13
Forum Regular
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 38
hmmm what kind of treatment can international students expect to get in NZ?
#14
Its exactly the same here in uk.
A uni course for example costs nearly 4 times as much for an international student....
A uni course for example costs nearly 4 times as much for an international student....
#15
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Joined: Apr 2003
Location: NZ
Posts: 207
Those here who expect to be treated fairly in NZ after obtaining PR are going to be disappointed. You will never be considered equal to a "kiwi" and a kiwi will always be preferred to you when it comes to jobs. The exception is when there are not enough kiwis to be had with the right skills or kiwis don't want the job.
This is definitely NOT the case in the UK, where people are assessed more on the basis of skills and experience, wherever they were obtained. NZ employers value "kiwi smarts" (having a NZ birth certificate) and "NZ work experience" (experience in the UK or US is worth less than NZ experience, whatever the job) over foreign skills and experience. The exception is if a kiwi has international skills and experience, in which case they are "a great asset to NZ".
I know a number of kiwis who have gone to the UK with NZ qualifications and NZ experience who have got good, career-boosting jobs after just a short job-hunt. It is a shame that NZ does not show the same generous, open-minded attitude when it comes to foreigners (yes, including white English speaking Brits!) applying for NZ jobs.
Try cab driving or cleaning. Kiwis do not want those jobs and your English or American accent and degree from Oxford or Stanford might not be too much of a hindrance there.
The above knowledge has been gained thru bitter experience, but no doubt I will be told it is all false. Oh well, here it is for anyone who is interested.
Slippers
This is definitely NOT the case in the UK, where people are assessed more on the basis of skills and experience, wherever they were obtained. NZ employers value "kiwi smarts" (having a NZ birth certificate) and "NZ work experience" (experience in the UK or US is worth less than NZ experience, whatever the job) over foreign skills and experience. The exception is if a kiwi has international skills and experience, in which case they are "a great asset to NZ".
I know a number of kiwis who have gone to the UK with NZ qualifications and NZ experience who have got good, career-boosting jobs after just a short job-hunt. It is a shame that NZ does not show the same generous, open-minded attitude when it comes to foreigners (yes, including white English speaking Brits!) applying for NZ jobs.
Try cab driving or cleaning. Kiwis do not want those jobs and your English or American accent and degree from Oxford or Stanford might not be too much of a hindrance there.
The above knowledge has been gained thru bitter experience, but no doubt I will be told it is all false. Oh well, here it is for anyone who is interested.
Slippers