The Welcome Mat?
 

In reading posts over the past few weeks a common theme has emerged particularly in Brits returning from Australia. It appears that many don't feel they fit in and could never envisage Australia "as home".

I wonder if we could explore this issue a little further:
The two regions are vastly different in climate, geology and topography,
The UK is centrally located in terms of International Political influence with North America also relatively close by where Australia is extremely isolated,
The UK is compact, whilst Australia is vast with great distances between population centres making domestic travel more arduous,
Australia is more perhaps more multicultural and Asia focussed with approx 61% of the population either born overseas or children of those born overseas
The UK has a wealth of History, Art and Culture of which Australia is sadly bereft
UK social culture has a fair indoor element where Australia's is outdoors and often sport focussed

In short there are SO MANY DIFFERENCES it is no wonder that people find it difficult fitting in.

I do however harbour one additional fear and that is are we Australians less enclined to provide the type of warm welcome to UK immigrants that Australians have received for generations when coming to the UK.

I have pondered this and wonder that if this is the fact is there anything of the parent child relationship between us? ie the children (Aussies) always feel welcome back at mum and dad's place but prolonged stays by the parents with the children (who have made new lives) can be strained.
My grandparents were from Sheffield and I have always felt that England would welcome me. When I lived there previously I was never anything but 100% accepted and welcomed, helped in so many ways to settle in. Had employment prospects been different for me at the time I expect we would have made England home.

The ethnic makeup of Australia is changing and there are less and less people with direct blood ties to the UK. I wonder if this will change the relationship between our two regions over time. Every now and then someone runs the Republic issue up the Flag Pole - it will be politically favourable one day and the conservatives will push it through no doubt.

I hope I am wrong and the answer for not feeling "at home" has nothing more to do with than our lack of a convincing Test cricket team!::o

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

No idea! It was quite ephemeral for me - almost a case of visual stimulation. After half a lifetime I just found Australia boring in the extreme but even when things were still ticking along quite happily I missed the green, the variety, the shared sense of humour and a whole raft of other things, any one of which, in its own, would be a minor irritant but together made a rather blah whole. I never expected Australians to be particularly welcoming, I was always too independent to expect others to go out of their way for me but we arrived at a time when it was safer to adopt the local accent or get the constant "whingeing Pom" jokes and that wore thin after a while. Even after half a lifetime I have very few "Australian" friends. The few friends I do have with longevity seem to be mainly long term expats like myself and even my Aussie husband and sons have very few long term friends - we've all had friendships based in work or developmental phases which haven't stood the test of time.

So, bottom line, I've no idea why my heart wouldn't belong when my head was telling me it should. I wasn't expecting a welcome mat per se so it wasn't that! I just didn't "belong" and it's hard yakka being an alien!

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

"So, bottom line, I've no idea why my heart wouldn't belong when my head was telling me it should. I wasn't expecting a welcome mat per se so it wasn't that! I just didn't "belong" and it's hard yakka being an alien!"

Mainly the same opinions for me/we (DOH) as well and especially the comment above. For some "home" is somewhere that supplies you with Sun, others larger homes, more suitable work etc (its mind blowing when you think of all the reasons that make people happy) for us it was about the feeling of really belonging (warts and all) for my friend in Aus she said there was no other country (there is) where her husband could work away (she loved her freedom) for weeks on end, earn a large amount of money (so she did not have to work) and still be in the same country, another friend hated so much green and now lives in Arizona......

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

One thing I never do is overanalyse, we feel at home here in England even though I grew up in Australia. I always feel incredibly welcome here and a little 'lost' in Australia for some reason.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Quite right Chris
Over analysis can make one moribund so perhaps better to just go for it.
I just never get the same sort of feedback form Australians living in the UK about not fitting in.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

And there you have it! I have put up with this cr ap for 36 years, and knew it did not happen in reverse.

I....no! I would like to say more, but I won't. I think you hit on something with that first post though!
Analysis maybe, but it is touching on the reason for a profound and enduring issue, which is why it is relevant.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Yes I agree, I have met many Aussies here over the years and they invariably feel at home and seem to be made to feel at home. The thing I found in Australia was everything seemed to be a competition, everything had to be better than the UK. Why that was so important I dont know, insecurity perhaps?
Even after growing up in Australia I still had to put up with the constant Pommie this or pommie that and the need to put everyone else down. I dont miss that one bit.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

I think there can be danger in looking for (a) concrete reason(s) for choosing to return to the UK. The way we describe it to people who ask is that there was no push to leave Australia, more a pull to come back to the UK.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

What a great way to describe it!

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Perhaps I'm in the minority however have personally experienced blatant racism and very unwelcoming behaviour, mainly from Scottish and English ladies I have worked with in the past. Awful, horrible and lead to many nights with me in tears. Also experienced it by little snidey passing comments from people at bus stops, in shops, even in a restaurant once. I have been told how very lucky I am to have been 'given' so many great jobs and how I should feel an enormous gratitude and guilt to be taking away good jobs from locals ... get on your knees and be thankful sort of attitude. Nothing to do with my capabilities?! And yes, actually I do feel blessed. Did make me smile one day where I overheard someone saying in the tea room that I was just after a British passport and willing to marry "ANYONE" ... when I've had a passport since I was 19 due to British father... but hey, you just go right ahead and think what you like small minded person. I'll not enlighten you to the fact I've had one boyfriend over in the UK and 10 years later we married...hmm.....

There is definitely a sense of seniority (? might be using wrong word here) over Australians/Kiwis etc.. in the UK. As in 'we own your country' and don't you forget that.

However... I have not met every single person in the UK and I have of course met many lovely people too. Friends that will be friends for life. A mixture of Scottish, English, South African, Polish, Aussie, Romanian and Irish. I have had wonderful time with lovely British people who tell me stories of them, or their children visiting Oz or NZ. How their relatives are there and how they would love to visit. They in turn are hungry for stories from 'home'.

For the sake of repeating myself in posts, it's a personal experience and unless we interviewed every single person who has lived in a foreign country we shouldn't be tarring every citizen with the same brush just because they live in a certain country. Some people are welcoming and some are not. It's down to the individual. There will be many Aussies who are awful to visitors, horrible. There will be others who are welcoming. Likewise with UK and the US and every country.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

I agree. The UK is not exempt from xenophobia.

There can be a very unwelcoming and condescending attitude towards folks from other countries, even former colonies like Aus, Canada, S Africa. I worked with several Aussies who felt both overt and covert discrimination from small-minded native Brits around them, especially in the smaller towns & villages.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Wow, I have never experienced anything like that thankfully and have found almost everyone so friendly and welcoming. Remember that to all intents and purpose I am Australian when I open my mouth and I havent heard this 'we own your country' thing but not saying it doesnt happen somewhere.
When you say comments from people at bus stops, shops etc I am confused, do you mean strangers?

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

yes of course! I would never associate with friends or people who insulted me!

I was talking on the phone to my brother at a bustop once about the birth of my nephew and an old lady mumbled something like 'why don't you go back there then' or words to that effect... she wasn't smiling with happiness like I was.

Shops - asked if I was looking for work, when I was browsing and when said, 'oh no, I'm browsing thanks' and left the store (not due to that) heard one assistant say something about 'immigration problem' .. perhaps a coincidence..

Told when I was working at a holiday camp by a group of drunken 40 something male idiots 'we own you, we own your country love just get the drinks'.. charming

told by an older group of ladies 'it's disgusting the way the country is crawling with Australian's' to my face....

I won't go on.

No, I don't have a big mouth and I'm friendly to all, no idea why I seem to attract the nasties.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

I think Australia has a chip on its shoulder and there is a healthy dose of community hatred out there as well.

I also believe there is an inferiority complex... Australians seem to always want to prove themselves to the British, Americans etc.

As for the hatred, watch in any shopping centre car park and see how many people exchange abuse over a simple car park... even walking can cause a problem...just the other day a woman deliberately shoulder hit me because I was walking towards her (I had a wall and couldn't move... she chose not to move... I know people who do this to people on purpose)... shop assistants resent you for asking a question, intelligent people look down on those not so bright, less intelligent people think intelligent people are "up themselves"... I know I'm generalising, but it seems to go on... bogans hate gays, whites and blacks hate each other, bosses and workers are frequently at each others backs and school bullying is out of control. Honestly, I'm just over the nastiness.

I haven't lived in the UK for a long time, but I hope this type of culture isn't rife there as well.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

please don't believe this of everyone, this is the absolute opposite of me all of my friends and family. Please don't tar every Aussie with the same brush. There are some good ones!

this is awful, sorry this happened to you, what a pig. This happened to me and a small friend when we were walking in Glasgow. A 'girl' of about 14/15 did this and knocked my friend off her feet. It was awful and I honestly thought they were going to start attacking us. Hope you're ok

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Still Game
Did this discrimination mainly happen in the small towns and villages? I have only lived and worked in UK cities and have never had this. I worked in Finance and had no overt display of resentment of me taking someone's job.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

one was a very small town, one was a holiday park and the rest a city. I have worked as wait staff, holiday events, in a small hotel and in small, large and global companies. Main career was quite senior Executive Assistant and that's where the people who had a problem had most of a problem.

just to be clear.. this happens all over the world in every country... it never happens to some people, I was just unlucky it seems. I do love it here (UK) and none of what has happened has put me in a big way living here very happily for nearly 13 yrs. I just rose above it, thought poor small minded folk are just that and moved on.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Brissybee
WOW you are in a world of pain there! Where do you live in Australia - South West Sydney?
You are quite correct that we have our fair share of bogans here. Also correct in your assessment of manners - it is often every person for him/herself, particularly in the cities. Racial disharmony can be a problem - again mainly in Sydney.
Sounds like you have hit the perfect storm of neighbourhoods - my advice is to move to Newcastle NSW - we are all luvly up here:)

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

that and Hunter Valley....some of the nicest places I've ever spent time in

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Sincerely; I'm astounded by this! I'm going to go out on a limb here:
I do not for one moment believe this is the general attitude to Australians in the UK. This is the limb part: I do believe this is the general attitude to the British in Australia.
BUT; how do I know? I haven't lived in the UK for 36 years! All I can put up is a recent comment from my recently traced brother (after 43 years), of 'why would you want to come...(you know the rest)...we have some lovely Australians next door'. ( Bless 'im, he didn't see the irony of that!).
I also got the identical comment from one of the house clearance people a few weeks ago: the why thing,-them the comment that 'they really like Aussies over there don't they'?

Tbh, I'm damned sad that this has happened to you.

Sorry, I forget who put up the thing about migrants wanting to go to another country. Not me. I didn't want to come to Australia per se; I wanted to leave the UK. In reverse? I want to leave Australia, but now I actually want to go back to Britain.

The point is, I TG that it is for places, not people! This stuff endorses it.

You know I cannot send you my (so called by me) rants, don't you? Believe it or not, I have no wish to offend.

You said it! And I agree. I have done my damnedest not to offend, and have only discussed my frank views in private, but damn it! this is my opinion after nearly four decades here, and it is totally unnecessary! Totally. Australia has its merits for Australians, and good for them. I mean it. But that comparision is incessant and I'm sick to death of it.

(How many of you remember the vile little UK beat up on the 'Sunday' programme late last year? It was the tackiest piece of shoddy 'journalism' I have ever damn well seen).

Can't anyone see that if the UK was as bad as it is portrayed-then WHY do so many people want to return? (I'm not even talking 'permanently' here).

Or is there denial that this perception is rampant?

If Australia really is 'living the dream' (the phrase regularly used)-WHY do so many want to return to that SOT-the UK?

Or is there denial that this perception is rampant?

Seriously what is the point of all this? We need to find out for ourselves, don't we?

(SOT? ....On Trees :o)

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Gosh, that sounds awful and is nothing like the reception I have had since arriving back here with my Aussie accent after 32 yrs away - people couldn't have been nicer and after the initial surge of "oh you poor thing" (quickly disabused) its as if the community have opened its arms to welcome. My son came for a gap year in his early 20s and did cop some flak when the Poms beat the Aussies at sport but it rarely got to be any more than good natured banter and certainly not something that he was uncomfortable or upset by - it gave him a certain cachet with his peer group I think. He has no intention of returning to Aus and has found friendships here which he never developed growing up in Aus.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

I agree about the incessant! It is the constant need to big up and be better than which drives you nuts - Canberra is particularly bad for that where oneupmanship is honed to a fine art. It's sad really, Australia likes to portray itself as a big boy on the world stage when in reality it's little more than a Jack Russell yapping around at the heels of the grown ups.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Yes Quoll
Australia has punched above it's weight Internationally for the last ten years or so. Thanks mainly to the economic miracle delivered by turning the country into a giant mining pit. We are quick to call ourselves the smart country and point to our superior economic record. This track record will be tested over the next five years or so as the commodity cycle unwinds with a slowing China.
The key driver of any chip on the shoulder is our geographic isolation. As I have said before, when my family is in Europe we feel markedly more in the centre of International politics and endeavour - more in the Premier League, when back in Australia we feel more financially secure but definitely relegated to the Coca Cola League.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

No I didnt mean friends would insult you but to be getting all this abuse from strangers is amazing, I have never once had a disparaging comment directed at me about the fact that I at least sound Australian. Usually people want to talk to me about it but Ihave never had anyone say anything about taking jobs or anything like that. I did used to hear it in Australia though.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

I know it's hard to believe but they did happen I can assure you. None of the occurrences were nice or wish to be repeated. I've said tho if anyone read my posts I have loved living here for nearly 13 years and the occurrences above did not stop me living in this great country. Good and bad happens in every country in the world. Every country. And everyone's experience is different.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

I could so easily have posted this myself. The chip on the shoulder is just so evident it seems to everyone but Australians. The superiority complex became obvious to my wife after about a week of moving there with me. It is like the country is a teenager constantly trying to prove itself to the adults mostly by putting the adult down. The constant negative comments about the UK just wear you down. Many recent migrants lap it up as it reinforces their decision that they left a shinking ship and that everything is just so much better in Australia. The UK on the other hand is like the middle aged woman who has no need to prove anything to anyone because they have been there and done that. If you criticise her she will just nod politely :)
I think Australia will be a much better country to live in when it grows up but it might be a slow process.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Im not doubting they happened, you do seem to be a magnet though ;)
My wife was in Australia for about a week so I took her to a friends party to help her meet some other people. During the night a bloke walked up to her and said 'Oh I hear you are from England' my wife thinking this is nice said yes I am, he replied 'I do feel sorry for you' and walked off. This set the scene for here entire long stay in Australia. Yes it does happen everywhere but I just wish it didnt happen so much in Australia.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

I'm really sorry for those posters who have had such horrible experiences in Australia (and in the UK too). I feel incredibly fortunate that the Australia described here is not the one I know and love. Yes, there were things I didn't like and that made me uncomfortable. The same is true of the UK.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

What an idiot. Just think how much if a sad life that guy will have with an attitude like that.

Yup happens in EVERY country. Every single one.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

What a well balanced positive post :-)

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Ahhh Chris! We get on I think, I mean no offence kiddo, but I would hate this said to me by an Australian.

I'm sorry, I could have gone further but I didn't, and I won't. This is not balance is it?, this is frustration I think.
Discretion is one thing-but not being able to say anything is entirely another.

Very gracious Still.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

I hope I didn't sound pious or censorious Emperor, and I certainly don't mean to imply no one should complain, I truly am sorry for those who had bad experiences in Australia, just as I'm sorry about Still's experiences in the UK. But, just as none of the posters not enjoying Australia should feel they can't post to that effect, nor should those of us who didn't have a terrible time feel afraid to pop our heads above the parapet.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Without question that is absolutely true. Unfortunately though this debate has very much a kind of chicken and egg scenario to it.

It has been my enduring and I mean enduring, experience that when people really open up that they are not/did not 'live the dream', it incurs criticism which can be both overt or covert.

I have to say though that BE patrons are not as caustic of negative views of Aus, as other places... That I feel is completely down to the management team. In all cases/places.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Tbh, I'm damned sad that this has happened to you.

Thanks :-)




You know I cannot send you my (so called by me) rants, don't you? Believe it or not, I have no wish to offend.

No probs completely understand. I have zero rose glasses on Oz so probably would agree with what you would say!



All in all UK has great things about it and so does OZ. and both countries have crap things too.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Yes I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement, the management are the ones that should set the tone and if need be nip nonsense in the bud, elsewhere it seems that this does not happen. Actually SEEMS isnt the right word as I know from experience this is the case. This forum is a breath of fresh air.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

To be fair it was very tongue in cheek and certainly no offense was meant.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

I didn't take offense, however did think it was a slightly odd thing to say when I had obviously been pretty frank and shared not so nice experiences that weren't fun at the time.

Anyway, no matter. I probably shared too much.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

Or reply with a snidey comment, or ignorantly turn her back as I have experienced from some smug middle aged English middle / upper class women. It is the elders that are chatty and pleasant in my experience.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

I gave this a lot of thought last night (Aus). I wondered why I found it so annoying, (and of course you know full well I did!)

I have changed my mind about this so-called 'fairness and balance'. I know what really irks me about this.

This entire section deals with those returning to the UK. The problem that always arises is when folks start to say WHY they want to return. Some of those reasons are less than flattering, and may well be inflammatory ( to long held notions..), but they are certainly not defamatory.

The title of this thread is 'Welcome Mat'. There was a clear acknowledgment by the OP that there may-may be a reason for some returnees to have valid concerns. (God! To this point this is groundhog day; I had this discussion so many times before).

The point is, that unless those opinions are defamatory, people are entitled to express them!
Then of course others stand on their democratic right to respond in defence of Australia.

Here's the rub: I don't believe for a nanosecond that either 'side' in this incessant scurry will deny one pertinent thing; Australia has been 'marketed' for years as the dream; sun/surf/sand etc. This has been done by both Governments/by Australians who,-unlike the British-generally do not run down their country/by recent and longterm UK migrants/by many UK residents who want to come to Aus.

Now take a look at the UK. It is incessantly ridiculed by Australian media/by many of its people/ by its tabloids etc,.....you get the drift.
This is undeniable. It's undeniable. The focus thus IS that in this UK/Aus debate the positive is Aus; the negative UK.

It is from that vantage point that all discussion ensues. That's the pivotal issue.
If that were not the case, then why are people who have the brass necked temerity to actually be happy having returned to the UK, and who say so, continually accused of having 'rose tinted glasses'/'being in the honeymoon phrase'? (and I stress this terminology is used on more than just this forum-the same terminology!)

Now turn that the other way. How many British settlers who have just come to Australia and are happy with their decision, are accused of having 'rose tints' etc?

This is only an issue for those who actually dare to find Australia less than perfect. It has bugger all to do with fairness and balance!

Australia is not a 'bloodsport' for both UK migrants or Australians. The United Kingdom IS-and you damn well know it!

(There is a blurb for some prog going out today; food I think. This verbal diarrhea says 'we all know that UK cuisine has improved..'etc (not verbatim). It is utter ongoing unmitigated crap! Regional food of the UK is second to none.....but that's just me being defensive isn't it? This thing is structured to a 'can't win' scenario)

The British tabloids; they who have a much wider following than the individual, should hang their vacuous heads in shame. They have handed a lead pipe to so many here and in the UK to bash the UK senseless.

(And of course to say this further compounds things. My 'defence' is a sure sign that I am also wearing rose tints! Use your noggin', it is nothing of the kind!! It is simply pointing out an entrenched status quo that sees it as fine to bag the UK, but not to be happy there).


So NO, I don't think any individual has the right to say 'well I'm just providing a balance'. You are not; you are simply not going to allow people who are happy to return to the UK, and along with millions there are happy; 1) just to be happy in the UK, but 2) more importantly, to point out why they were unhappy in Australia.

It has got to the absurd stage that many have to 'qualify' their desire to return with the 'I did like it in Aus-had friends' etc, to mollify the inevitable criticism.

(YES-for many a true feeling, but not for all. In another place someone had taken a drubbing, and then qualified any further posts with 'it's not like I didn't like Aus'. I questioned that change and got a poignant pm saying it stopped the attacks. How bloody sad).

You have the democratic right to provide your so-called 'balance', but you do not have the moral right.

Until and unless people start saying Australians are $%$@!!, then I suggest you butt out and leave people who are returning to the UK to express themselves freely in this one area of the forum. You have your area-it is not invaded by returnees to the UK suggesting 'By God! this and that is wrong with Australia/rose tints/honeymoon.

Balance? Rubbish! This whole issue is based on a positive Australia and a negative UK, that allows for criticism only one way.

Returning to the UK/posts/reasons why/and then criticism of those returning for their naivety/......and the inevitable negative experiences in the UK.

Am I saying you can't do that? No. I'm saying you do that every time in response.

Why not go onto to the Australian forum, and join in with those who are so happy to come to/are settled in Australia-and discuss their reasons for leaving the UK, and what you found negative about it?

You have my word I will not come there and talk about all the positives in the UK, and be critical of you as 'honeymooning/rose tints' in Australia?

And I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Re: The Welcome Mat?
 

This post has certainly brought out firmly held positions. A forum such as this provides a wonderful opportunity to air these views in a virtual environment - given the passion of the perspectives I congratulate all on the composure shown to date.

I too have been reflecting on the recent posts and they have reminded me of the one "niggle" I had when working in UK cities - particularly the big one.
I worked in Finance and particularly in Banking and Insurance. During my assignments I felt welcome and appreciated. I did however sense that there would be a limit to my progress within the larger corporations with whom I worked. Nothing overt but at a senior level there was always a propensity by the English to refer to past schooling or University - not academic achievement - rather simply attendance at Institutions I assumed were meant to be respected and meritous. Many of my work colleagues were clearly from "old money" and were "connected".

Does an element of this still exist in the UK particularly London? Is it changing?