The Vote
#31
Re: The Vote
I heard on the news today that the petition to have a second referendum was actually started by a Brexitier before the results came through, assuming Brexit would lose.
If Scotland leave the UK in order to join the EU, is there any guarantee that the EU will accept them as members? Remember the UK tried twice to join before it succeeded, De Gaul knocked us back both times, and we were only allowed to join after he left office. I can't imagine that the Scots really want to pass through border control every time they travel to England or Wales etc. Nor that they really want to adopt the Euro if they are allowed to join the EU. But obviously they should have another referendum if that is what they want.
I do agree with others that Cameron should have remained neutral. People have said that 52 to 48 isn't a big enough win, but I think that considering the official position was to Remain and that every household in the country received a pro-Remain leaflet, it is. You have to take into account that without the project fear and the official position, it would have been a bigger win.
If Scotland leave the UK in order to join the EU, is there any guarantee that the EU will accept them as members? Remember the UK tried twice to join before it succeeded, De Gaul knocked us back both times, and we were only allowed to join after he left office. I can't imagine that the Scots really want to pass through border control every time they travel to England or Wales etc. Nor that they really want to adopt the Euro if they are allowed to join the EU. But obviously they should have another referendum if that is what they want.
I do agree with others that Cameron should have remained neutral. People have said that 52 to 48 isn't a big enough win, but I think that considering the official position was to Remain and that every household in the country received a pro-Remain leaflet, it is. You have to take into account that without the project fear and the official position, it would have been a bigger win.
#32
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 470
Re: The Vote
Fact: Cameron campaigned on a platform of obtaining reform from the EU.
Fact: Cameron called the referendum.
Fact: Cameron decided to not only participate but also lead the Remain side.
Fact: Cameron stated he would continue to be PM regardless of the result and implement article 50 if the result so required it.
Fact: Cameron resigned as soon as the result was against him.
If you say you are going to do something then do it. Don't walk away because you didn't win.
Was he an ok PM before? - yes, but on this he got it totally wrong.
Fact: Cameron called the referendum.
Fact: Cameron decided to not only participate but also lead the Remain side.
Fact: Cameron stated he would continue to be PM regardless of the result and implement article 50 if the result so required it.
Fact: Cameron resigned as soon as the result was against him.
If you say you are going to do something then do it. Don't walk away because you didn't win.
Was he an ok PM before? - yes, but on this he got it totally wrong.
Stepping down could have been a last minute decision and I don't begrudge him for that. Who would announce they might step down before the fact? I say he got it right. It was the xenophobic part of the population that got it wrong, and now they'll have to live with the negative after effects.
#33
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 711
Re: The Vote
Calling the referendum and stating to be on the remain side was the honorable thing to do. There were calls in his party for a referendum. He could have chosen to ignore it. Instead he acted on true democratic principles to allow the people to decide. Then in keeping with his principles he's stepping down.
Stepping down could have been a last minute decision and I don't begrudge him for that. Who would announce they might step down before the fact? I say he got it right. It was the xenophobic part of the population that got it wrong, and now they'll have to live with the negative after effects.
Stepping down could have been a last minute decision and I don't begrudge him for that. Who would announce they might step down before the fact? I say he got it right. It was the xenophobic part of the population that got it wrong, and now they'll have to live with the negative after effects.
Ah, so over 17 million people are xenophobic and racist? No, nor was the result all down to immigration. There were so many more factors, issues and concerns that contributed to the result.
The remain side had more experts, money, extended the registration deadline to include more of "their" voters, Gibraltar votes to bump them up, and undecided voters who went with the status quo and I know for a fact that Remain paid people to deliver their leaflets whereas Brexit had a team of volunteers.
Thankfully, we live in a democracy, the people have voted and spoken and those who are now complaining should realize that.
#35
Re: The Vote
I was glad to see the German Chancellor will lead negotiations. It would be foolish to bet against Angela Merkel, her track record in negotiation both in Germany and the wider EU is actually superb when measured by outcomes. The quiet German seems calculating enough to work with a wide range of people with differing objectives towards a common goal, she has a beautifully quiet confidence - if she has ever felt pressure it doesn't seem to show and doesn't seem to seek self-aggrandizement. When people look back at this era in European politics I think they will see the German Chancellor as pivotal to maintaining the Union when under extreme pressure.
In western society we often see combative, defiant people as possessing strength and leadership but over the last decade Angela Merkel has shown an enduring style of leadership built more on engagement and cooperation. I absolutely trust that, while what she says may not be what the UK wants to hear, there is no leader in Europe more trustworthy or capable if you are sitting across the table from her. If she makes an offer it may not be the offer you want but it will be fair and there is no question about her failing to deliver on her end of a bargain.
In western society we often see combative, defiant people as possessing strength and leadership but over the last decade Angela Merkel has shown an enduring style of leadership built more on engagement and cooperation. I absolutely trust that, while what she says may not be what the UK wants to hear, there is no leader in Europe more trustworthy or capable if you are sitting across the table from her. If she makes an offer it may not be the offer you want but it will be fair and there is no question about her failing to deliver on her end of a bargain.
#36
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Dec 2013
Location: Consolacion,Cebu
Posts: 1,927
Re: The Vote
I heard on the news today that the petition to have a second referendum was actually started by a Brexitier before the results came through, assuming Brexit would lose.
If Scotland leave the UK in order to join the EU, is there any guarantee that the EU will accept them as members? Remember the UK tried twice to join before it succeeded, De Gaul knocked us back both times, and we were only allowed to join after he left office. I can't imagine that the Scots really want to pass through border control every time they travel to England or Wales etc. Nor that they really want to adopt the Euro if they are allowed to join the EU. But obviously they should have another referendum if that is what they want.
I do agree with others that Cameron should have remained neutral. People have said that 52 to 48 isn't a big enough win, but I think that considering the official position was to Remain and that every household in the country received a pro-Remain leaflet, it is. You have to take into account that without the project fear and the official position, it would have been a bigger win.
If Scotland leave the UK in order to join the EU, is there any guarantee that the EU will accept them as members? Remember the UK tried twice to join before it succeeded, De Gaul knocked us back both times, and we were only allowed to join after he left office. I can't imagine that the Scots really want to pass through border control every time they travel to England or Wales etc. Nor that they really want to adopt the Euro if they are allowed to join the EU. But obviously they should have another referendum if that is what they want.
I do agree with others that Cameron should have remained neutral. People have said that 52 to 48 isn't a big enough win, but I think that considering the official position was to Remain and that every household in the country received a pro-Remain leaflet, it is. You have to take into account that without the project fear and the official position, it would have been a bigger win.
#37
Re: The Vote
Now that I have had some time to digest the situation, I am in agreement with you. What's done is done. I would have preferred that this referendum was won by the voters being presented with the facts, and the truth as far as what was promised, but there are no rules that say this must happen in order for a democracy to be considered functioning. So let's just get on with it and make the most of it. First order of business will be to bring a fractured nation together. But I guess we will have to wait for the two main parties to get their s***t together first
#38
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 470
Re: The Vote
The EU have said that if Scotland "separates" from the UK it will have to apply to join the EU as an independent country. Besides meeting the 35 criteria it would have to adopt the euro AND have border controls between Scotland and England. Can't see it happening as the EU really wants countries who will be nett contributors not nett takers. Just my 2p worth.
Last edited by Richard8655; Jun 27th 2016 at 3:10 pm.
#39
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 3,520
Re: The Vote
Poland and the Eastern Euro countries have promised to join the euro in due time. That was part of the agreement when they joined. They've just delayed it, with tactical EU approval. They may delay it in perpetuity!
Scotland, however, would be in an odd position. How can they join the EU but continue to use the pound, a currency belonging to a country that's not in the EU? Whether they use the pound or a new currency pegged to the pound, they're still at the mercy of the BoE and control over finances indirectly remaining with the BoE. The EU won't like this at all and will demand Scotland adopt the Euro from day one.
Scotland, however, would be in an odd position. How can they join the EU but continue to use the pound, a currency belonging to a country that's not in the EU? Whether they use the pound or a new currency pegged to the pound, they're still at the mercy of the BoE and control over finances indirectly remaining with the BoE. The EU won't like this at all and will demand Scotland adopt the Euro from day one.
Of course not all 17 million Brexit voters are xenophobic. Other factors, such as EU control from Brussels, among them. But anti-immigration fears and attitudes significantly contributed. Watching Question Time this morning, anti-Polish criminal activities over the weekend were addressed and have been denounced by all parties. It's all part of the mix.
I'm surprised about the Euro requirement for Scotland, if true. Poland and (I believe) all the new eastern Europran countries joined without adopting the Euro and kept their own currencies. But keeping the UK pound by Scotland would be complicated as well.
I'm surprised about the Euro requirement for Scotland, if true. Poland and (I believe) all the new eastern Europran countries joined without adopting the Euro and kept their own currencies. But keeping the UK pound by Scotland would be complicated as well.
#40
Re: The Vote
Poland and the Eastern Euro countries have promised to join the euro in due time. That was part of the agreement when they joined. They've just delayed it, with tactical EU approval. They may delay it in perpetuity!
Scotland, however, would be in an odd position. How can they join the EU but continue to use the pound, a currency belonging to a country that's not in the EU? Whether they use the pound or a new currency pegged to the pound, they're still at the mercy of the BoE and control over finances indirectly remaining with the BoE. The EU won't like this at all and will demand Scotland adopt the Euro from day one.
Scotland, however, would be in an odd position. How can they join the EU but continue to use the pound, a currency belonging to a country that's not in the EU? Whether they use the pound or a new currency pegged to the pound, they're still at the mercy of the BoE and control over finances indirectly remaining with the BoE. The EU won't like this at all and will demand Scotland adopt the Euro from day one.
#42
Re: The Vote
Like most things to do with this debacle, nobody knows. Team Leave haven't the foggiest idea about what to do next so it's anyone's guess. If I had to put a figure on it I would say there is possibly a 50/50 chance that we have another say in the matter, either a second referendum on the terms of the new settlement or a general election where one or more parties stood on a Remain manifesto - the Lib Dems have already said they'll be doing the latter. That doesn't necessarily mean that the result would change however.
#43
Re: The Vote
Yes, I realize all this really. Just clinging to straws I suppose.
But it's interesting that the growing sense is that still Leave haven't got a clue where all this is going. That is the absolute tragedy, even more than the result, I think.
S
But it's interesting that the growing sense is that still Leave haven't got a clue where all this is going. That is the absolute tragedy, even more than the result, I think.
S
Last edited by Snowy560; Jun 28th 2016 at 10:19 pm.
#44
Re: The Vote
Yes, I realize all this really. Just clinging to straws I suppose.
But it's interesting that the growing sense is that still Leave haven't got a clue where all this is going. That is the absolute tragedy, even more than the result, I think. That our future can be messed around with for the sake of a few people's political ambitions. Sorry I'm having a rant and I promised myself that I wouldn't do this.
S
But it's interesting that the growing sense is that still Leave haven't got a clue where all this is going. That is the absolute tragedy, even more than the result, I think. That our future can be messed around with for the sake of a few people's political ambitions. Sorry I'm having a rant and I promised myself that I wouldn't do this.
S
Bottom line is that the Leavers are going to be as annoyed and disappointed as the Remainers when they realise that the mass deportations aren't going to go ahead and new migrants will still be able to come much as they did before.
#45
Re: The Vote
Just wondering if we'll get a Norway Plus or I've seen the term Brexit Lite around ... the EU maintain it won't be up to the UK to choose. The EU will want to take a tough line to underscore the point that leaving countries won't benefit overall (surely?).
S