I think issues with bad behavior stem not from alcohol; alcohol only serves to bring to the surface underlying issues such as lack of respect for ones self and others, poor self discipline, and a generally lower standard in peoples’ moral compasses. It stems from liberal upbringings, and of course it is self perpetuating since the current crop of reprobates will hardly be setting the best example for their kids in the future.

The problem is, as I see it; I was brought up in a very strict household, and belted a fair bit. But my parents ensured all the bases were covered in terms of manners, respect, decency etc through discipline. And I towed the line. But the issue is that I had a pretty miserable childhood. If you go the other way, a lack of discipline breeds uncontrollable louts.

So you have two choices; a tough upbringing with a better chance of producing decent people in adult life, or liberal upbringing and experience what we are all complaining about today. There is a middle ground, but it takes a lot of thinking about and caring unselfish parents prepared to make sacrifices, but I think there are less of those about these days and most favor leaving their kids to their own devices as it is less of an intrusion on their “lifestyles”. Or the parents just do not know any better.

I totally agree with your statement. Also, I think part of the problem nowadays is that most parents are "too busy" to parent or else just cannot be bothered.

Slight correction - it is 'toed the line' as in putting one's toes to the line and no further.

A Liberal upbringing in the political sense has no adverse consequences - as a Liberal would probably refuse to water board another human being 183 times in a month. If you mean liberal in the non-political sense then I would totally agree with you.

If kids are not seriously controlled then many (not all) will most times run wild.

Many households , usually at the bottom of the economic scale are a feral environment. It's hard to believe that parents would buy cigs with their last money and leave the house and the kids with no food. I have personally seen that on many occasions. A different 'uncle' moves in every 3 months etc.
When the kids get to 14 or 15 they are sat in a car at the back of McDonald's doing cannabis etc and it's already too late for them.

This isn't Liberal in the political sense - indeed many of these people who do vote, vote Conservative as they are racist and into public executions and floggings, deport black people etc - that's right wing stuff - oh and the restoration of fox hunting.

Kids get dysfunctional in rich families to but not to the same as extent as under educated, hopeless families who's situation is their own choice - many times it's a conscious choice to stay in that kind of environment - that kind of culture.

Like street people who don't want saving - they actually prefer that life

Nobody knows the answer to why a section of people go that way - if we knew it would have been stopped; corrected. Nobody knows.

It seems to be strongly correlated with money - or it's easy to stop and change if one has money.

Not sure if I agree with all you say here. Both my parents were from very poor backgrounds, but they still had pride in themselves and their kids, and knew right from wrong and instilled it in us. And I am not sure people choose to be poor, it's often as a result of their upbringing, opportunities and education (or lack of).

I think the answer is not in educating the kids, but education of the parents and making them take responsibility. One does not have to be from a low socioeconomic background and be devoid of a sense of decency, although it probably is harder, particularly if you are marginalised by polarised views.

I think you misplaced your SOH.

I suppose the big thing I have noticed in the last 3 years (besides the economic crisis) is the precipitous decline of pubs. This was brought home to me when I visited my mate in Stafford last weekend. Along the route from his house to the station there used to be 6 pubs. ALL of them have shut down since I last went there, which must have been only about 7-8 months ago. 2 of them have turned into restaurants which is good, but the others are standing derelict. Similar story when I headed up to Norfolk last weekend. Lots of abandoned pub buildings, mainly the ones that used to be coaching inns along the main road. I think we are currently losing about 40 of them a week.

It seems that the complete ban on smoking in pubs, along with all other public buildings, including offices and places of employment, has a big part to play in this situation, other than the current economic situation. Many pubs were often so smoked filled that you did not realise just how much until you got home after a night out at the Golden Lion or the Hare and Hounds or wherever....it was a case of the washing machine or the dry cleaners, with no such facility for a non smoker's lungs. Smokers don't really relish standing outside the pub especially if it's cold and wet.

Google failed me for once -- for SOH, it has offered up "Sine is opposite over hypotenuse" .. or the fifth note & dominant in any scale.

Sorry, "sense of humour" (I guess you don't read the Lonely Hearts ads ... GSOH = Good Sense of Humour ...???). 'Spose it was just a bit esoteric (a bit like "ghastly" )

Thanks! I should have figured that out myself!!
The London Review of Books lonely hearts are always an inspiration..
"Woman, 50ish, balding, no sense of humour, seeks perfect man"
"Mentally, I'm a size eight. Compulsive-eating F, 52, WLTM man to 25 for whom the phrase 'beauty is only skin-deep' is both a lifestyle choice and a religious ethos. Box no. 5115."
"They call me Mr Boombastic. You can call me Monty. My real name, however, is Quentin. But only Mother uses that. And Nanny. Monty is fine, though. Anything but Peg Leg (Shrewsbury Prep, 1956, 'Please don't make me do cross-country, sir'). Box no. 0473."