The Real NHS
#106
Re: The Real NHS
Health tourism is a "convenient" scapegoat for other inefficiencies and issues in the NHS. I'm all for the NHS enforcing it's residency requirements (I once tried to pay for NHS treatment as a visitor and they declined to take my money - wtf?), but let's be realistic here - the NHS has rather more significant issues to address. Of course, that won't stop the Daily Mails of this world from their agenda.
As for returning expats not being able to use the NHS because they haven't paid in, I see many flaws in that argument.
First, an ex-pat who returns at age 40 and earns a high income may pay more in taxes in his remaining work days than some UK residents will pay over his whole lives. Does that mean the minimum wage worker should have his care rationed? And what about UK residents who earn enough to pay the 45p rate (or is it 50?), and never left the country. Should they get better care because they paid in more? This is the logical extension of the 'you only get out what you pay in' argument.
Also, the ex-pat who has been out of the country for years may not have paid in, but they also haven't used the system and therefore haven't cost the country a penny. Now they're back, they will go into the system like anyone else - paying taxes and going to the doctor when they need to, but they'll likely never use as much NHS care as a person who's been in the country forever.
Whatever the solution is for the NHS, I believe it must be applied to all residents and that any attempts to divide people into 'them' and 'us' and feed paranoia are part of a larger agenda. It's not just that the tabloids aren't particularly accurate. It's that they are actively pushing a political agenda and manipulating public opinion through these one-off stories.
Last edited by sallysimmons; Sep 20th 2012 at 4:40 pm.
#107
Re: The Real NHS
Also, the ex-pat who has been out of the country for years may not have paid in, but they also haven't used the system and therefore haven't cost the country a penny. Now they're back, they will go into the system like anyone else - paying taxes and going to the doctor when they need to, but they'll likely never use as much NHS care as a person who's been in the country forever.
Take my situation. I left the UK at age 25 and I have lived outside the UK for 26 years. I have paid voluntary NI contributions and now have 30 years of contributions, but I've never paid UK income taxes or any UK tax for that matter. I have not consumed much health care so far just like most people who are quite health before the age of 50. As we get beyond 50, 60 and 70 people consume drastically more health care. Old people are expensive when it comes to health care. When I return, I will be paying some UK taxes, but not income tax as I'll be retired, and my UK tax amounts will be less than I've paid during my working life. So the peak of my health care costs will coincide with the minimum in my taxes.
Last edited by nun; Sep 20th 2012 at 5:08 pm.
#108
Heading for Poppyland
Joined: Jul 2007
Location: North Norfolk and northern New York State
Posts: 14,545
Re: The Real NHS
The strength of the NHS is that it delivers care free at the point of service without regard for your ability to pay. That is what makes it better than the US system. However, a returning expat might actually cost the NHS far more than they contribute.....this is in no way a bad thing and the way the NHS is organized recognizes such situations will exist and is explicit in saying they are NOT an issue.
Take my situation. I left the UK at age 25 and I have lived outside the UK for 26 years. I have paid voluntary NI contributions and now have 30 years of contributions, but I've never paid UK income taxes or any UK tax for that matter. I have not consumed much health care so far just like most people who are quite health before the age of 50. As we get beyond 50, 60 and 70 people consume drastically more health care. Old people are expensive when it comes to health care. When I return, I will be paying some UK taxes, but not income tax as I'll be retired, and my UK tax amounts will be less than I've paid during my working life. So the peak of my health care costs will coincide with the minimum in my taxes.
Take my situation. I left the UK at age 25 and I have lived outside the UK for 26 years. I have paid voluntary NI contributions and now have 30 years of contributions, but I've never paid UK income taxes or any UK tax for that matter. I have not consumed much health care so far just like most people who are quite health before the age of 50. As we get beyond 50, 60 and 70 people consume drastically more health care. Old people are expensive when it comes to health care. When I return, I will be paying some UK taxes, but not income tax as I'll be retired, and my UK tax amounts will be less than I've paid during my working life. So the peak of my health care costs will coincide with the minimum in my taxes.
#109
Re: The Real NHS
.. and, to extend the thought, the United States is getting a free ride, since you won't be consuming the Medicare health care that you paid for while you worked in the US. Meanwhile it doesn't work the other way around; Americans who have lived, worked and paid taxes in the UK can only retire to the US with Medicare if they have at some time worked for ten or more years in the US, and even then they have to pay their Part B and Part D etc.
The US/UK reciprocal SS agreement cannot be used to qualify for Medicare. Its only applicable for the SS pension, so the US citizen who has lived in the UK for most of their working life should plan on working for at least 10 years in the US before they retire there if they want to get Medicare Part A without a premium.
http://www.ssa.gov/international/Agr....html#medicare
#110
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: Finally moving!
Posts: 1,236
Re: The Real NHS
Did you know the whole of England is computer linked by the NHS? ... So it won't be long before Tourists are actually billed for care as they won't have a GP and address to be looked up on the computer. She also said that eventually everyone would be issued with a healthcare card like a credit card to access care which I think would be a brilliant idea.
The NHS is notorious for promising confidentiality and not delivering by leaking routinely. I would not trust the NHS beyond a strict "need to know" basis. Some patient groups with particularly sensitive conditions, for example VD, psychiatric or intersex conditions, have been livid at leaks and gossip.
So can one still opt out of computer records?
#111
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 2,606
Re: The Real NHS
I seem to recall, a few years back, that when NHS records were being computerised, there was an option to ask your GP to keep only paper records and not upload your information to the central computer system. Which was then known as SPINE.
The NHS is notorious for promising confidentiality and not delivering by leaking routinely. I would not trust the NHS beyond a strict "need to know" basis. Some patient groups with particularly sensitive conditions, for example VD, psychiatric or intersex conditions, have been livid at leaks and gossip.
So can one still opt out of computer records?
The NHS is notorious for promising confidentiality and not delivering by leaking routinely. I would not trust the NHS beyond a strict "need to know" basis. Some patient groups with particularly sensitive conditions, for example VD, psychiatric or intersex conditions, have been livid at leaks and gossip.
So can one still opt out of computer records?
#112
Re: The Real NHS
I seem to recall, a few years back, that when NHS records were being computerised, there was an option to ask your GP to keep only paper records and not upload your information to the central computer system. Which was then known as SPINE.
The NHS is notorious for promising confidentiality and not delivering by leaking routinely. I would not trust the NHS beyond a strict "need to know" basis. Some patient groups with particularly sensitive conditions, for example VD, psychiatric or intersex conditions, have been livid at leaks and gossip.
So can one still opt out of computer records?
The NHS is notorious for promising confidentiality and not delivering by leaking routinely. I would not trust the NHS beyond a strict "need to know" basis. Some patient groups with particularly sensitive conditions, for example VD, psychiatric or intersex conditions, have been livid at leaks and gossip.
So can one still opt out of computer records?
I was in the chemist the other day to pick up the remainder of a prescription they hadn't been able to fill earlier in the week. I was asked for my name, then my address, then the name of the medication was said (out loud). Luckily for me it wasn't anything embarrassing, but they really need training on patient confidentiality.
#114
Re: The Real NHS
I think there may be something wrong with that link - when I clicked on it, it launched dozens of Web pages that wouldn't stop, even when I clicked them closed. I had to go into Task Manager to close down Explorer because it was going mental opening up tab after tab, all with that link ... or maybe it's just a gremlin in my machine ...
#115
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2010
Location: The sunshine state
Posts: 1,358
Re: The Real NHS
Dunroving, I tried the link from my post and it appeared to work OK. If you can't access it, try the telegraph web page. There's a header on there for the article. Interesting reading and comments.
#117
Re: The Real NHS
OK, that's good to know - thought I'd put out a warning just in case. I know my mousepad has been acting up so maybe it "stuck" on the link - though I don't know why it would have continued to open the link.
Ah well, back to your seats, panic over.
Ah well, back to your seats, panic over.
#118
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2010
Location: The sunshine state
Posts: 1,358
Re: The Real NHS
Dunroving, did you manage to open the link?
#119
Banned
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 37
Third World NHS
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-medicine.html
...Just wait for Chris to jump in saying that you can't rely on the Daily Mail. Just read who is quoted in the article.
Speaking from personal experience, the NHS is appalling. Worst cancer outcomes in Europe, GPs who have a diagnosis ability of zero, squalid and dirty conditions, nurses who cannot even communicate and hail from real nations of healthcare quality-Nigeria, Russia and Zambia.
The big problem in the UK is that the private sector is not comprehensive, so you have to use the NHS
...Just wait for Chris to jump in saying that you can't rely on the Daily Mail. Just read who is quoted in the article.
Speaking from personal experience, the NHS is appalling. Worst cancer outcomes in Europe, GPs who have a diagnosis ability of zero, squalid and dirty conditions, nurses who cannot even communicate and hail from real nations of healthcare quality-Nigeria, Russia and Zambia.
The big problem in the UK is that the private sector is not comprehensive, so you have to use the NHS
#120
Banned
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 37
Re: The Real NHS