Police Caution

Old Jan 30th 2008, 12:07 am
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Default Police Caution

Hi, i've got a couple of questions about coming to the US from the UK and hope someone out there can help.

Firstly, im planning to go to New York for a week later this year, but i received a police caution for common assault last year. I've heard a number of different things from different people about whether im eligible for the visa waiver scheme or if i need to apply for a visa and im not sure what the truth is. I've read something about 'moral turpitude' and im sure the crime doesnt fall under that category so does that mean i dont need to tell anyone about it?

Secondly, when would this become an issue? Would it be mentioned at the travel agents when i book my holiday, or when i arrive in the US? Or is it something im expected to know about and deal with before i travel?

Thanks in advance!
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 12:39 am
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Default Re: Police Caution

Originally Posted by oscar84
Hi, i've got a couple of questions about coming to the US from the UK and hope someone out there can help.

Firstly, im planning to go to New York for a week later this year, but i received a police caution for common assault last year. I've heard a number of different things from different people about whether im eligible for the visa waiver scheme or if i need to apply for a visa and im not sure what the truth is. I've read something about 'moral turpitude' and im sure the crime doesnt fall under that category so does that mean i dont need to tell anyone about it?

Secondly, when would this become an issue? Would it be mentioned at the travel agents when i book my holiday, or when i arrive in the US? Or is it something im expected to know about and deal with before i travel?

Thanks in advance!
You're supposed to know - the responsibility is yours. You will fill out a form before entry to the US - one of the questions is if you've ever been arrested or convicted of a crime of moral turpitude. You are supposed to answer honestly. The travel agents probably won't mention it - and if I were you, I would NOT discuss it with them.

Is a simple assault a crime of moral turpitude? Is a caution an arrest? We've had a lot of debate on the forums about these questions lately, try doing a search of the forum. I have the impression (but I am certainly no lawyer) that a caution is quite possibly an arrest, and a simple assault might or might not be a crime of moral turpitude.

If it is your honest impression that you can honestly answer "no" to that question, nothing will *probably* happen on the visa waiver vacation.

But if you ever wanted to work or immigrate to the US, or even get a visitor's visa - that could come back to bite you. If they decide you lied, i.e. committed fraud, you could be banned from the US forever.

Perhaps some knowledgeable folks here will be able to answer you more definitevely - I personally would suggest getting an immigration lawyer to evaluate your situation. www.ailalawyer.com has a list of US immigration attorneys.
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 12:48 am
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Smile Re: Police Caution

Originally Posted by oscar84
Hi, i've got a couple of questions about coming to the US from the UK and hope someone out there can help.

Firstly, im planning to go to New York for a week later this year, but i received a police caution for common assault last year. I've heard a number of different things from different people about whether im eligible for the visa waiver scheme or if i need to apply for a visa and im not sure what the truth is. I've read something about 'moral turpitude' and im sure the crime doesnt fall under that category so does that mean i dont need to tell anyone about it?

Secondly, when would this become an issue? Would it be mentioned at the travel agents when i book my holiday, or when i arrive in the US? Or is it something im expected to know about and deal with before i travel?

Thanks in advance!
I suggest you write to the U.S. Embassy and see what they say. Write to the Immigration representative, and explain what happened. He/She will be able to tell you whether you need a visa. I had a conviction in 1977 for Criminal Damage and applied for a visa because I was told I needed to. In the long run the visa was a great thing to have because I kept crossing over the border into Canada where I have family while I was in Michigan with my then girlfriend. The visa made things a whole lot easier.
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 12:51 am
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Default Re: Police Caution

Originally Posted by kingfisher241049
I suggest you write to the U.S. Embassy and see what they say. Write to the Immigration representative, and explain what happened. He/She will be able to tell you whether you need a visa. I had a conviction in 1977 for Criminal Damage and applied for a visa because I was told I needed to. In the long run the visa was a great thing to have because I kept crossing over the border into Canada where I have family while I was in Michigan with my then girlfriend. The visa made things a whole lot easier.
I would politely disagree.

I'm sure they will say yes, have to apply for a visa. Probably a default answer.

If it turns out the OP could legitimately use the VWP, it would be best to preserve that ability. I'd ask an attorney.
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 1:19 am
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Default Re: Police Caution

Thank you for your replies, they are much appreciated. Of course i would like to abide by the law and do things correctly but i read somewhere else on this forum that the general concensus among people here is that US immigration almost certainly dont have access to UK caution records. Do most people believe this to be the case?

Also, if the very worst thing happened and i was stopped and found out after not declaring my caution, is it likely that i would be refused entry to the country? Or would the fact that it is only a caution, and a minor offence mean that i could plead ignorance and say i was unaware that i had to declare it? Are there any stories among people here who have experienced this?
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 1:25 am
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Default Re: Police Caution

Originally Posted by oscar84
Thank you for your replies, they are much appreciated. Of course i would like to abide by the law and do things correctly but i read somewhere else on this forum that the general concensus among people here is that US immigration almost certainly dont have access to UK caution records. Do most people believe this to be the case?

Also, if the very worst thing happened and i was stopped and found out after not declaring my caution, is it likely that i would be refused entry to the country? Or would the fact that it is only a caution, and a minor offence mean that i could plead ignorance and say i was unaware that i had to declare it? Are there any stories among people here who have experienced this?
They probably don't easily have access to caution records. And probably wouldn't even look if you came in on the VWP.

But that's really irrelevant to abiding by the law and doing things correctly - that's more of a "can I get caught" question.

If they really think you're innocent of deception - I dunno. They might send you home and tell you to get a visa. Buy if they think you are intentionally deceptive, you could be banned forever. Rumour has it USCIS looks at these boards sometimes too - if that's true, you are now on record as knowing you perhaps should declare your caution.

If you ever need an actual visa (or meet the woman of your dreams and want to immigrate some day) it could perhaps really be a problem.

Myself - I wouldn't want to take the risk. You might be able to get a consultation with an immigration attorney very inexpensively, have them take a look at exactly what your simple assault was, and give you a legal opinion. I had an initial consultation with a guy for $100 once. Good investment imo.

But that's just me - perhaps some more of the experienced regulars will chime in.
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 1:26 am
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Default Re: Police Caution

Originally Posted by oscar84
Do most people believe this to be the case?
You should be more concerned about whether or not it's actually true... as opposed to what we believe.


Also, if the very worst thing happened and i was stopped and found out after not declaring my caution, is it likely that i would be refused entry to the country?
Yes, you would likely be refused entry... and you would likely face a lifetime ban from the US for lying to immigration authorities.


Or would the fact that it is only a caution, and a minor offence mean that i could plead ignorance and say i was unaware that i had to declare it?
Are you really comfortable asking whether or not we support your attempt to conspire against the US government?

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Old Jan 30th 2008, 1:38 am
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Default Re: Police Caution

i can see you points and im definitely not attempting to conspire against the US government, it wouldnt be worth the trouble i could potentially get myself into. if i did find out i needed a visa i would certainly apply for one but its rather time consuming so i'd like to find out for sure before applying. I guess the only way to get a definitive answer would be by getting in touch with the US embassy. thanks for all your help!
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 1:41 am
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Default Re: Police Caution

Originally Posted by oscar84
i can see you points and im definitely not attempting to conspire against the US government, it wouldnt be worth the trouble i could potentially get myself into. if i did find out i needed a visa i would certainly apply for one but its rather time consuming so i'd like to find out for sure before applying. I guess the only way to get a definitive answer would be by getting in touch with the US embassy. thanks for all your help!
Getting in touch with the embassy means you're applying for the visa!

It all revolves around whether a "common assault" is a CIMT for VWP entry. Assault is a tricky one because it can go either way. You'll need to expand on your description of the crime you committed before anyone here can guess for you.
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 1:51 am
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Default Re: Police Caution

Originally Posted by oscar84
i can see you points and im definitely not attempting to conspire against the US government, it wouldnt be worth the trouble i could potentially get myself into. if i did find out i needed a visa i would certainly apply for one but its rather time consuming so i'd like to find out for sure before applying. I guess the only way to get a definitive answer would be by getting in touch with the US embassy. thanks for all your help!
The embassy will *definitely* tell you to apply for the visa.

Get some legal advise (gee I sound like a broken record).
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 2:36 am
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Default Re: Police Caution

Originally Posted by oscar84
I guess the only way to get a definitive answer would be by getting in touch with the US embassy.
You will NOT get a definitive answer to a legal question by asking the US embassy. They are not lawyers, they do not give legal advice. Contact a lawyer and provide him/her with all of the details of your case.
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 1:46 pm
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Default Re: Police Caution

This is copied and pasted from the website of the US Embassy in London.

Travelers who have been arrested, even if the arrest did not result in a criminal conviction, and those with criminal records, (the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply to U.S. visa law), are required to apply for visas. If they attempt to travel without a visa, they may be refused entry into the United States.


There is also this;

http://london.usembassy.gov/cons_new...add_crime.html

And the Visa Waiver Wizard

http://london.usembassy.gov/cons_new...sa_wizard.html
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 1:53 pm
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Default Re: Police Caution

Originally Posted by English Muffin
This is copied and pasted from the website of the US Embassy in London.

Travelers who have been arrested, even if the arrest did not result in a criminal conviction, and those with criminal records, (the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act does not apply to U.S. visa law), are required to apply for visas. If they attempt to travel without a visa, they may be refused entry into the United States.


There is also this;

http://london.usembassy.gov/cons_new...add_crime.html

And the Visa Waiver Wizard

http://london.usembassy.gov/cons_new...sa_wizard.html
The U.S. Embassy in London is too big for its boots. They do not make the decision. They are part of DOS. The people who make the decision are CBP, part of DHS.

It's not uncommon to find one US agency doing one thing and another doing something totally at odds. The relevant question for the OP on the I-94W asks:

“Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to a controlled substance; or been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses for which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more.“

Provided he can answer no to that question, he does not need a visa.
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 2:01 pm
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Default Re: Police Caution

How many british tourists with convictions as long as your arm go on hols to the U.S. every year ? well ,if everyone with a conviction/caution got refused entry ,diney world would be closing down pretty quickly ! if you werent charged or appeared in court dont worry about it .
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Old Jan 30th 2008, 2:11 pm
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Default Re: Police Caution

Here is what wiki has to say about it. Dunno how accurate it is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_turpitude

I am sure you could find more info if you spend some time googling and refining your searches as appropriate.
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