brightonbelle

dunno if it helps...you would have to find out the updated pre registration education on NMC website...and the corresponding section on adult training.

but the EU requirements for my course (06-09) was "showing applicable knowledge and exposure to nursing care within midwifery setting". Each uni decides how to construct their course to meet specified criteria as well as the more wishy washy general criteria as above. Hence no two uni courses will be identical.

So in my case "maternity exposure" meant two days practical placement experience with a midwife mentor and signing off of several clinical skills (not practical skills but ethics, etc) and completing a marked essay surrounding one aspect of nursing care given to the mother within a midwifery context.

In contrast, my contacts in other unis had one to two weeks placement in a maternity hospital and unmarked essay work....others had no practical placement in a setting, just a workbook to complete.

sorry its not much of an answer....just that at the end of the day to satisfy EU requirements there must be some kind of documentary evidence of knowledge gained about nursing care of new mothers as opposed to concentrating on midwifery itself.

how to get it...I dont know.

Tracey

bithbheo

thanks for that info will keep plodding on and see what I can find out to get me where I want to be........your explanantion gives me the most info I have I have been able to get....thanks again

cricket1again

This might interest anyone looking into the care profession
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7930906.stm

Fleaflyfloflum

Looks like OH might get some work on the side!


As to the nurse training. I am a bit confused after reading one of Brightons links. It says that if you get funding from an employer to do the nurse training you dont get a bursary. If this is the case does the 3yr rule still apply as the employer would be paying?

brightonbelle

Hi Flea,

well theres good news and bad news about the employer funded route!

Ok will start off with the basic info.
Its known as secondment training. You would have to have a permanent full time contract with an NHS employer (trust) if you intend going for a full time nursing course ie three years. If your employing trust employed you part time then you would have to do the much longer part time route into nursing. However, allthough your still employed and paid by your employer, your pay actually comes from some sort of fund so that the trust doesnt lose out financially ie paying you but your not actually working. Therefore there is only so much fund available for secondments.

Every trust differs with regard to who can do secondment training. It is mostly only health care assistants who can be put forward (they have experience and know what theyre letting themselves in for lol). Also each trust differs in how many seconded places they can offer which reflects on who they would consider.

So, you get a job as an HCA at a hospital (more so than a clinic, care home etc as you'd get more varied experience). Then you ask your unit manager to put you forward for nvq level 2 training. Complete that, then do level 3. Once you have level three thats when you can request to be put forward for secondment training.


ok..good news first. Secondment pays a percentage of your basic pay therefore your not tied to recieving a bursary. So in theory the residency rule may not apply...but I havent been able to find anything re the fund rules and regs on this. The minimum requirement for seconded place is a years employment in the trust immediatley before applying. So in theory if you could achieve level three nvq hca in a year you could apply to be considered. Depending on your trust and fellow hca's there may be very few interested in doing nvqs or allready have them so theres no waiting to get the nvq training and funding is no problem for the unit you work on. Furthermore, as one of the links at the bottom show, one trust has over 300 places for secondment, so a good chance along with the rest of the competitors. One of my fellow recent grads had just under two years hca experience and got in, however she had several years of employment on same ward as a clerk.
Allthough I cant find any links, secondment has resulted in exemplary qualified nurses (from personal experience) and the idea of it is good.

ok, now the not so good news (sorry but like to arm people with correct info).

1- some trusts stipulate more than the minimum length of hca service before they will consider an applicant for secondment ie they want 3 years. A lot of trusts need hca's on the ward more than they need qualified staff. A lot of places dangle the incentive of secondment to attract hca workers but fail to mention how long the process takes

2- getting your nhs unit manager to fund you to do the nvq can be a lenghty process....there could be a waiting list of hcas waiting to start nvq (and likely to be as its the only way an hca who doesnt want to do secondment can progress up the pay scales is to get their nvq's as well as those hca's who do want to get seconded). ditto for starting nvq 3. So it could take you more than three years to get seconded. In addition, secondment doesnt guarrantee a uni place. A place could be offered but the trust wont fund you so you lose it, or in the case of one of my colleagues her funding got pulled after she had started the course (but thankfully she got the bursary instead - but unis have found seconded funding cuts a problem and I can only speak for my uni -ARU - they liked to know the student was eligable for bursary just in case....).....or you gain the funding but theres too much competition at uni and you cant gain a place, in which case your funding offer is withdrawn, and you have to fight everyone else for the next pot of funding.


3-some trusts do not offer secondment at all, or very few places. Secondment was bought in when there were insufficient uni applicants for diploma nursing. However, unis are reporting significantly more applicants for places (check out ucas and those unis still with places and those full allready for sept this year). As one of the links illustrates, hcas with the right nvqs and years of experience find that the sheer amount of applicants mean they have to wait a long time before they get their go.
Although a trust can put forward applicants for secondment, it will be down to the uni to decide who they are going to take onto their courses. They go on qualifications, quality and length of experience(hence my comment of ensuring you do hospital hca) sickness and absence records from employment (NMC requirements on minimum theory and practice hours means you can only miss a certain amount of lectures and placement days. We were allowed 15 days absence over the whole three years, any more than 21 and it stopped you qualifying on time, any more than 40 and we would be discontinued from the course).


4- finally, and an important point to make. Nursing is allready degree only in Wales and Scotland. England is going to go degree only (check nmc website). Whilst no fixed year has yet been decided the proposed year for discontinuation is 2013, with unis being allowed to stop the diploma courses from 2011 onwards.

Whilst this will have no effect on qualified staff holding an R.G.N or diploma R.N, it does affect potential students. Mature students currently dont have to have the regular entry criteria of gcses or A levels...hence an nvq 3 will get you in seconded or bursary (with or without numeracy and literacy level 2 dependant on uni) or completing an access course and getting a bursary place. However, once all degree then it will only be the access course that will be accepted as the equivelant of three A levels. So I dont know what will happen to those hcas with or still obtaining their nvq 3...maybe some further study say part of access to enable them to go forward?

My advice would be, if you know what area your moving back to...would be to look up local trust policy on secondment for the trust(s) you could work at...and get some idea of funding, amount of places, and also contact uni(s) of interest to see how many secondees they take on, how full they are for this year (if allready full for sept then indicates popular uni so more competition)

its only my opinon (sorry for the length of the post!) but access and bursary funded place would be best option to ensure uni would consider you...dont think that secondment will get you in any quicker given you have two years residency allready.

Finally, a random bit of important info ..as a bursaried student you dont pay tax, can go out and earn on top of the bursary tax fee to your allowance (6k) and you may get travel expenses for when your on placement. This is a big deal. I couldnt have done my training without it. Bascially, getting travel expenses for placement covered my petrol costs of getting to uni as well..and thats the equivalant to £20-£40 of petrol pw depending on where I was sent to. In contrast, seconded students pay tax not only on seconded pay but on any part time work they fit in with uni...and they are not eligable for travel expenses.

phew. hope that helps flea!



http://www.learnonline.nhs.uk/NR/rdo...AINING2004.pdf


http://www.unison.org.uk/features/features.asp?did=3313

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache...nk&cd=16&gl=uk see section 3.1.1

Fleaflyfloflum

WOW!! you are such a mine of information. Thanks very much for all this.
Its a bit of a minefield isnt it? I think I will wait till i get back and take it from there.

My OH is already a forensic psych nurse, so we were hoping there might be an opening wherever he works as a HCA once i am fit enough to work again.
Its all ifs and buts right now, but i shall keep your links!!

brightonbelle

Hey flea, your welcome.

sorry for the long post but wanted to give u what info I had or knew of.

I forgot to add that the O.U route is basically the same, get into an hca job and do secondment that way...I dont know what the rules and regs and time limits are for doing it that way so may be another avenue for you.

If your going for access theres nothing to stop you applying to uni now for 2010 and getting a conditional offer (on passing access and completing your final year for residency).

Where theres a will.....I start my R.N job in four weeks, never thought I would make it...dont let the bastards grind u down!! lol

Ty

edited to add found all the current trusts doing OU secondment...http://www3.open.ac.uk/media/fullstory.aspx?id=12215

oh oh!! just found this...this trust normally expects hca to have two year employment history, but is flexible on this if person would consider mental health nursing....hmmm, might this apply to the other trusts?? http://www.southwestyorkshire.nhs.uk/documents/652.doc

Fleaflyfloflum

Bless you. I hope all goes well in the new job!

Fleaflyfloflum

Seeing as the ladies on this thread are a mine of good info, i thought i would ask this question on my daughters behalf.
Believe it or not, we have both decided to do the access course as a lead into nursing so will be studying together... how cool is that?
She will be a bit ahead of me though as she starts her course next week.

Her question is, what is the difference between a doploma in nursing as opposed to a degree in nursing?
I vaguely remember reading somewhere that those wishing to climb higher up the ladder need to do a degree, but does getting a diploma restrict you in what you can do as a registered nurse?

brightonbelle

Hi Flea,

A great site for info on being a student...www.studentnurse.org.uk. Yes, I'm on there! ok, onto the dip versus deg debate.

basics.
The majority of students do the dip programme as the basic bursary is not means tested, whereas the degree is. So for example, I got just under 7K bursary, my degree friend got 1.5k bursary..the rest of her income was student loans which of course she has to pay back.

All students do the same amount of placement and theory hours. Degree students have either more work (assignments, presentations, dissertation), or same amount of assignments but some marked at higher level, plus the diss. Writing levels=Diploma, need to achieve 240 points at L1+2. Non honours degree is 300 points so 60 is at L3. Honours degree is 360 points, so 120 is at L3.

EMPLOYMENT.
-Newly qualified.
All nurses start off at lowest point of band five. Dip or deg wont make a blind bit of difference in getting a job, the only academic requirement is that your on the NMC register (the other criteria are based around knowledge that all students would be expected to have upon qualifying).

-Staff nurse. You stay in band five and progress up the points. Progression is based on clinical experience and post registration courses such as mentoring, open to all.

-Senior staff nurse, junior sister. Dip or degree level training makes no difference, again its all down to experience and post reg courses obtained. Some senior jobs will stipulate evidence of degree level study (especially specialised areas ie A+E, oncology, cardio, ICU etc). Diploma students not disadvantaged as their post reg level 3 courses are evidence of this level of study...of course if they dont do post reg study then this will hold them back. In contrast, a dip student with recent L 3 study will be viewed more postively than a deg student with no post reg study.

-Sister, nurse practioner etc. (top band 6 upwards). Usually stipulate possession or working towards specialised degree. Diploma and degree students are both disadvataged, as original qualification wont count. They will be looking for specialised degree in that area. Say its Intensive Care. They will expect you to have studied post reg courses/modules specific to their requirements. Therefore, both the dip and deg students will have to do the same post reg study to either convert their RN degree to specialised, or to top up diploma to specialised degree.

So on the one hand the diploma benefits a student financially, and it wont hold the career oreintated nurse from promotion. However, the benefit of doing the degree is learning to do level 3 writing whilst being a full time student with all the support and facilities ie writing classes etc. You gain confidence and ability to write at this level..but I must point out that just because a dip student does not work at this level, it does not mean that they cant do it.

Diploma nursing is being phased out, gradually. But this will only pose a problem to the dip trained nurse who does not undertake further study...and equally the deg trained nurse who doesnt study either...as it will be the post reg study and experience that will get the promo cause everone will be the same. By that time the diploma trained nurse has evolved into a degree qualified nurse with more relevant and recent qualifications.



So Flea, it makes no difference intially, a degree does not improve your chances of employment on qualifying, nor increase your chance of getting into a specific area. I have a B.S.c (hons) degree and my nursing diploma, and I start my new job alonside my diploma or degree qualified colleagues. Everyone got a job on qualifying, those wanting specific areas made sure they did their elective placement in that area to get their face known...as proving yourself as a student on their ward ensures the unit manager knows you and has seen your work.....committment to the speciality is most important factor.

I did the dip in part because of finances. But mainly because I knew what lay ahead. My diploma would cover me up to the point of needing a specialised degree...when we would all be in the same boat..and I will just top up. If I didnt have my original degree.....I think I would have considered an option my uni provided..you start off on diploma for year one and two on full bursary, and swap to degree in third year (if judged academicaly able by assignment scores) so only that year to cope on lower money and gain the higher level writing experience....or I might well have stayed on the dip knowing what I know now about about uni setting their bloody assignment deadlines when your on full time placement!!

Ty

brightonbelle

pps

just to give you an idea, click on this link (my trust)

http://jobs.cuh.org.uk/job_search/s1?nc=63081238072976

and for band 5/6/7 jobs click on them (but not the staff bank ones), then scroll down the page to person specification. Click on that and it will show the educational requirements for the post.


So you will see from this limited sample that band 5 + 6 jobs dont require degree level.
Some of the band 7 jobs such as the Clinical Nurse Specialist (diabetes) are suitable for applicants with a diploma or degree (and post reg diabetic course)
Other band 7s require evidence of working at degree level, but not necessarily having one.
Only one job ..(research nurse) specifically wants a degree as essential critiera, but not degree trained...can be post reg degree from dip top up.

So no person spec ever requires a person to have an RN degree from their training...just some want one obtained somewhere along the way.

pay rates for bands (basic, not including unsocial hours)
http://www.rcn.org.uk/__data/assets/...901/003303.pdf

Of course, things will change in the future as waves of NQ nurses come out with their degrees..but if you read the specs years of experience will allways win! Heck, even found a modern matron band 8 job where they consider a degree as desirable but not essential....whereas specific experience is....(no person spec, click on job description then scroll down)

http://www.jobs.nhs.uk/cgi-bin/vacde...tion=912221577

Ty

Fleaflyfloflum

You really are fantastic Ty

Once again thanks so much for your help. I passed this on to my daughter.
She will probably do the Dip as she will need financial help and childcare costs etc. and will get more money doing the dip

Chrissywissy100

What Brightonbelle has said is largely correct, although always worth bearing in mind that even though the Person Specification / and or Job Description may have degree as "Essential", if you have evidence of continuing your professional development in the area of expertise they are looking for, and practical experience, they will consider your application.

Provided there is no legal requirement for them to insist someone has a degree over the diploma, most NHS organisations will consider someone with "X years relevent expereince" and most should be putting that on their person specs by now, or it could be seen as discriminiating against older workers (under age discrimination regs) who didnt have to have a degree or diploma to become a nurse.

Obviously, the more boxes your application ticks without them having to interpret your experience into educational equivilents, the better your chances.