Cape Blue

It's funny you mention that, I was at an ice hockey game on memorial day in Chicago and they dragged out various soldiers to praise etc and then the national anthem and to be honest the whole standing, ferverent, glistening eyes, semi-indoctrinated, hand on heart, turning to huge flag process reminded me exactly of Nazi rallies - that isn't to say that I find American's like Nazi's (obviously, before any USC's get their knickers in a twist), but the rampant patriotism, bordering on nationalism, did seem and feel like movies of authoritarian 1930's Germany.

There was this slight air of F-yeah USA!, hoorah our military busting those ragheads asses etc etc. It came over like everyone in the stadium knew, absolutely, that the USA was better than anywhere else. Hard to describe and to be fair, I suspect that many Brits miss "the good old days" and lament how "PC gone mad" means you can't fly the Union Jack blah, blah, blah, so I am sure there is an element of this unthinking nationalism in the UK, perhaps just less so.

exvj

yep and the submarine film from the 2nd world war which had them capturing the OMEGA device from the Uboat off Iceland when it was the Brits who captured it !

as for the war itself (we saved you) we licked the Germans in the battle of Britain in 1940 a good 18 months before the ditherers entered the war. The Russians rolled the Germans all the way from Stalingrad to the German border while the GI's were giving cheap nylons to the loose women in London.
Then they arrived in Europe towards the end and got the Poles to do the hard fighting in the low countries.

What a shower

One of the guys here did make me laugh - he said if it wasn't for the French, the Americans would still be speaking English

robin1234

The Scots fought their way through the Low Countries too. While our American allies got their knees under the table in Paris.

exvj

yeah I must admit I am not immune to the Nationalism thing but I can never remember the same religious / triumphalist mix stuff in the UK. I have a copy of the dvd 'triumph of the wills' showing the Nuremberg rally and it is much tamer than many of the things I see in the US. A mere sideshow in comparison

I have proved to them that that constitution is based almost word for word on the English Constitution of 1689 but they blink and can't get it. Life liberty, pursuit of happiness - all lifted from the English. We even had the right to bear arms, freedom of speech and religion 100 years before them - but they think it was on tablets handed down by god to the sainted founding fathers. It is more like one big giant cult (spellcheck done !)


The only saving grace is the levels of ignorance or it really would be Roman Empire 2

The characteristics were in place in 1895 when Kipling wrote 'an american'

http://www.daypoems.net/poems/1854.html

exvj

I became British recently. I was English before I saw George Galloway socking it to the US Senate

I am at one with the Jimmies now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyyGoPerzWc

CanadaJimmy

Seconded.

Actually, no. Canada has so much immigration that many of the natives have accepted that the immigrants can do what they like to an extent. Just visit Richmond, BC, it's essentially part of Hong Kong in it's style of architecture and the sheer amount of Asian people.

Obviously some Canadians think that they're "ruining Canada" but even that is usually a more British style of complaint, whining in a cathartic way rather than actually taking an American-style aggressive stance against it.

exvj

I suppose it's the same all over - I bet the Yorkshire people thought the Danes were 'ruining Yorkshire' in the 900's

Actually, they probably were - I have been married to two redheads and they are both crackers.

But even if the Americans didn't mind European ideas being brought in, I would still struggle with their right wing culture. The first thing any immigrant learns is that different States are almost like different countries - so Boston is going to be a whole lot different to Arkansas

The advice of going 'where they are more like you' has to be a very good tip.
Seattle has a climate like Lancashire and they shoot at each other with AK47's so forget that.

I couldn't stand all this when I am old(older), so I leave my 'run money' in sterling in the Bank of England.

Mummy in the foothills

You have a problem I have encountered so many times while living here I am horrified to say I live in a little bible belt here and if you look on the voters map it's a solid red area full of republicans who all claim to be True Christians (cause apparently you can't be democrat and christian ). I get sick of hearing Praise Jesus if anything good happens and spend a lot of time biting my tongue.
It seems to have become worse over the last 5 years or so, or maybe I'm no longer as tolerant as I age. I can't wait to get the hell out of dodge. I have two friends I'll really miss, even they claim to be republican Christians but drop it around me
The indoctrination of the kids in school pissed me off royally with my boys (now 16 and 22 and very skeptical and liberal ) Dd is in Kindergarten now and it's starting all over again. Pledge the flag daily, yippee and holler USA is the greatest the rest of the world is a third world nation attitude.
Like you exvj I have exit money, no one can touch it and it'll get us all home safe and sound. If I thought I was stuck here forever I think I'd be on xanax.

Scout

Will you make it? It's hard to say. I can tell your from personal experience that my husband (a Brit) didn't. He finally just got to the point where he couldn't take it any more. So we finally upped sticks and moved to the UK.

What I can tell you is from an American perspective, because that is what I am.

You can move back to the UK, but you won't escape prejudice or racism by doing so. The UK, just as much as America has it's share of racists. I see examples of it every day. People on a daily basis ranting and raving about the 'paki's, the ragheads, and every other racist term you can think of. People who rant on about all the 'foreigners' taking over everything.......and when I point out that I'm one of those 'foreigner's their standard response is that "yes, but you're ok because you are the 'right colour' or speak English. I actually see and experience much more racism here in the UK than I ever did in all my years of living in Atlanta in the heart of the American South. That doesn't necessarily mean there's more of it here, or less of it for that matter.......it just means I'm more aware of it now.

My best advice to you is to STOP watching Fox News or any other of those whacked out right wing channels.

As to the Nationalism thing.......Americans are/were not raised with the shadow of Hitler and Nazi's looming over them. To them, it's not Nationalism, but Patriotism....They don't consider that the flying of the flag smacks of facism or even hints at it.....even when they are waving it in your face. Yes, they are proud of their country and yes, they love their country, perhaps often for a lot of wrong reasons or because of a history that has sometimes been distorted down thru the years......but even those like myself, left wing, liberal, athiest, understanding the warts of my native country......still love it....even with the right wing nuts, the bible thumpers, the racists, etc.

I love the Appalachian Mountains, especially in the autumn....when you can drive for hundreds of miles and see beautiful hardwood forests bathed in golds and reds set against a clear blue October sky. I love the Gulf Coast and the white sandy beaches and the aquamarine water that laps against my ankles when I walk for miles along the beach. I love Atlanta where I can dine at a 5 star restaurant after I've caught a show or a baseball or football game. I also love the part of Atlanta, where I can pop into my 'local' and see people I have known all my life or just met and have a great conversation with them....whether they be a doctor, lawyer, plumber, bricklayer or landscaper, etc. There's a million things for me to love about my native country America.....and to hate.... There's also a million things for me to love about the UK....and to hate.

I chose not to dwell on the hating things so much. The longer I live in the UK, the harder it gets sometimes. I hate that so many people are on benefits and shouldn't really be there. I hate that so many people get shit faced drunk and fall over the street on the weekends. I hate that so many people seem to turn to things like heroin to try and 'escape' and then just waste away. I hate that people feel that anyone who flys the Union Jack is either a BNP member or a tourist. I hate that it's not acceptable to love your country and that if you do it reminds people of the Nazi's. Most of all I hate that so many natives are so negative about their own country when they aren't being so negative about other countries.

And while I'm on my soap box..........I hate that even on Memorial Day when the last time I checked, we were supposed to honor those that had served in the armed forces......in faraway places such as the beaches of Normandy, or Italy or Germany.......we should look over our shoulders and wonder if people are thinking we are too much like the facists of the 30s. ....Don't get me wrong.......things I see in America disturb me greatly......the completely stupid fighting over the proposed mosque in NYC, the right wing and everything they do, the bible thumpers, etc.......but those things that disturb me about America are NOT ALL THERE IS to America.....no more than the racists, the yobs, the BNP, the herion addicts and the benefit cheats are all about the UK.

And while, I'm at it......Americans died in WWII too.......a hell of a lot of them did, and a hell of a lot of them were wounded.....including my step father and uncle. So lay off the Americans were late to the party crap when I doubt seriously you were around at the time to really be able to comment with a whole lot of authority on the subject. It serves no purpose to harp on about such things other than to show pettiness.

Flame away. Jeeeeeeze.

geeandtee

hmmmmm

I'm pretty sure there's one or two US Army Airborne Divisions that would dispute that.

Bastogne
Battle of the Bulge, etc.

exvj

jeez this is SO refreshing

Actually talking to normal people.

I have found a couple of liberal sites on the net and it's better than talking to the rabid right - but they are mostly freaky teachers and nutty professors and a bit far from anything real.

I think I am probably kidding myself that even a liberal is anything like a Brit but at least they care.

I think I am slowly falling into a trap that many expat Brits get into - the day to day living is good and the climate and the roads and the prices and the health care (if one of you is employed), but the culture of militaristic jingoism and supremacy and religious junk grates more and more with every passing day.

In the end you don't want to go back coz it's dark and wet and windy and cold and crowded and full of.... but you don't want to stay coz you will always be an oddity to them and so will they be to you

It's a golden cage.


At least I have got over the homesickness so it will be an unpressured decision if I do go back. My USC wants to retire at 55 and it would cost us probably 12k each pa for equivalent health insurance. 10 years of that to age 65 is 240k

The alternative is to live somewhere nice in England and pocket that dosh.

We could always keep an apartment here near her folks for when she got
homesick. After 3 years she could get her red passport like David Soul so she would never be left to die in the gutter in the US

She lived in the UK for a year and there was distinct anti- Americanism (Bush years) but that may have faded some now. At work they kept hitting her with the Iraq stuff even though it was a US firm in the UK

We are off to England in 3 weeks so I will treat her to some nice grub and hotels and stuff - no expense spared - lull her into a false sense of security !
Let's hope it doesn't rain much....

exvj

Not quite Stalingrad or Kursk though... I reckon the Ruskis saved all our botties

sallysimmons

A couple of examples - the Tories had a gay themed night at their last convention and David Cameron supports civil unions. The Republican would drum him out for that kind of behavior! Also, he supported Obama's recent financial regulation reform - makes him practically a communist as far as the right-wing in this country is concerned.

Where they agree is their obsession with tax cuts for rich people and slashing benefits for everyone else, but on social issues, Cameron is a 'leftie.'

I live in a very liberal blue state and in a very liberal part of that state, so I never come across the things the OP is talking about. I second the suggestion to move - it will do wonders for your blood pressure! Also, I read liberal blogs - Talking Points Memo and Balloon Juice are excellent websites, I watch MSNBC, and I listen to NPR. But when I get too distressed by the latest Fox-driven wingnut craziness, I just turn it all off and read a book

And I do have to say that US patriotism doesn't, in any way, remind me of nazis. I find it odd - I don't get being attached to this patch of land over that patch of land - and I find the insistence on being 'the best in the world' annoying - but it's a far, far cry from the nazis and I don't think we should be flippant about that subject.

exvj

Good stuff !

We still have to wait for an openly non-believer to be PM of the UK but the percentages of non-believers in Europe including the UK are huge.

I agree that the way the US Govt interacts with the people is in no way nazi and there should be no confusion there.

However, the flags with eagles on the top and the organised parades and ceremonies and the sheer weeping fervor of the nationalism, is reminiscent of the 30's rallies in Germany. Perhaps therefore, it stops at the surface appearance, but it is anxiety making for the Europeans and many say they are a bit un-nerved by it.

Many thanks for those links I will put them in my favorites... Look I am spelling like an American now so progress reported !

I comfort myself by looking at all the changes in the US since 1787 including the end of slavery, votes for women, votes for 18 years olds, votes for non property owners, domestic violence issues, gay rights (evolving), civil rights, emerging health care system, etc etc. The direction is good but slow.
It's a one way process of liberalisation.

There are plenty of Americans who would like to reverse all those things tomorrow and they are the ones who bring me out in rash - but they all live in.....

Cape Blue

I didn't suggest that USC's want to gas Jewish people, just that the ferverent, glistening eyes, with hand over heart saluting the flag, roaring out the national anthem, did, on this occasion, remind me of films I had seen of 1930's Germany - you could feel the patriotism/nationalism in the air in the stadium.