camponotus

Sometimes one of the things that I find hardest here in Australia is when I encounter the exact same problems (or different but equivalent versions of them) that I thought I was leaving the UK to escape.

Here are some examples

1) People moan in the UK about the weather being, well, crap. But here in Melbourne rather than loads of rain you simply get not enough and therefore loads of annoying water restrictions. The cloudy days in the UK come in for a knocking but in Australia the relentless long, hot summers and constantly having to think about applying sun-block are no less tiresome.

2) People moan about not enough parking in the UK. Drove to the city the other night with my wife to meet up with some of her friends and we couldn't find a parking spot for a good twenty minutes or so, perhaps more.

3) People moan about the hospitals and the NHS in general in the UK. When my wife was pregnant in England, all her appointments for scans and things were arranged for her but here she has to do it all and pay for it too. The public hospital she's going to be giving birth in is no cleaner or more efficient than the one in England.

4) People moan about public transport in the UK. The public transport there though is second-to-none compared to the next-to-useless train service here in Melbourne with its dirty seats and graffiti everywhere.

5) People say the UK is rundown. I've seen so many rundown looking buildings and suburbs in Melbourne I wouldn't even know where to start in listing them.

6) People say the Brits aren't friendly. The Brits may be more reserved (although really that's mainly in the south of England only anyway) but they actually have, from my experience at least, a greater respect for manners and politeness than the Aussies do. The Aussies have this big thing about being 'up-front' and 'honest' but they often take this too far and it goes into just being rude and brash.

7) People say the Brits are uptight. I've found the Aussies no more laid-back, though they think they are. In fact, they're only laid-back about their attitude towards being polite. The bureaucracy in Australia is out of control at times and remember how they spray the planes when you land here? What on earth is that all about?! Laid-back? Hardly.

8) People in England moan about the TV and Radio broadcasting, but both are infinitely better than in Australia, where the TV and Radio is absolutely rubbish.

9) People moan about the amount of people in the UK and point to Australia's enormous size and relatively low population. They forget though that people in Australia are mostly packed into the areas around the cities of Melbourne, Sydney, Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane, so I bet the difference in population density is nothing like what people think it is.

10) People say that the UK is expensive. I earn about the same, if not a little more (cos I changed jobs) than I did in the UK but I don't have a bigger flat, a flasher car, more meals out or more holidays than I did in England. Cheaper? Maybe a bit but again not by much at all.

Anyone agree at all?

3 go mad in Adelaide

Agree with most of it, but not with the bit about people in the south of England - we're lovely!

backagen

But Melbourne has the 'worst' (if by bad you mean wet and cold) weather in Australia. Most other parts of Australia have generally warm sunny weather most of the time.

But in Adelaide it's very easy to park in most places. Even in the city centre you can park easily for free if you don't mind a 5 minute walk to the main shopping areas.

But Melbourne again is probably the exception to the Australian norm in this regard because most other cities have much newer and more modern hospitals. Waiting times in public hospital emergency departments are a major concern though.

I think that just depends on where you are. Adelaides public transport is fantastic compared to that in Manchester where I come from. People here like to complain about it, but the fact of the matter is you can buy one ticket and it's valid on any train, bus or tram for 2 hours, whereas in Manchester each transport company has its own (old fashioned paper) tickets and they are not interchangable, and you have to pay according to how far you intend to travel. Adelaides buses, trains and trams are generally clean and modern and finding your way around by public transport is extremely easy because almost every route starts or ends in the CBD.

Agreed. I know what you're saying because I have lived in Melbourne (in a run down area) but most other cities in Australia have few run down areas and are predominantly clean, modern and very well planned.

I agree with this one. Although there are plenty of friendly and unfriendly people in both countries.

100% agreed. Nothing laid back about it really.

Agreed more or less. There are sometimes one or two good things on Australian TV but it's relatively rare. That being said, in my recent experience most of what is on TV in Britain is no better nowadays.

Yes, but then again most people in Britain are packed into cities and surrounding suburbs too, because that's where the infrastructure, jobs, shops etc are!

I must say in all honesty that some things, such as houses and petrol are far more expensive in UK, and I mean by a very long way.

Anyone agree at all?

meljor

I concur, I have found no benefits to living in Melbourne these last 3 years added to this the lack of customer service when complaining about a bad meal or faulty goods. As for cost of living no different still have nothing in the bank at the end of the pay period, the only difference is in England I could buy food and services I like, here I put up with what's on offer.

backagen

Having lived in Melbourne for one year (which was as much as I could have tolerated) I must say it is very much like England in many ways, (weather, houses, etc) but of course without the British culture, history, tourism, humour, food...........

I never could understand when Melbourne kept winning the award for "worlds most livable city"!

Black Sheep

Who says the Brits aren't friendly?! I wasn't born British - but I'd put 'friendliest funniest cleverest most interesting people to have as friends, neighbours and/or dinner guests' at or near the top of any list of what makes Britain great. That's the Brits in Britain I'm talking about. I would've added 'and in any other country in the world' as well, but I can't, as the British immigrantsI've come across in New Zealand who actually prefer it here to UK don't in my experience quite fit that description.... which is perhaps why they're happier here, and why I am NOT.

I once had to move out of a certain large Oxfordshire village after living there only a year because the people were so friendly and welcoming to me, a complete stranger, that I needed to put some space between us before I ended up a complete alcoholic from all the get togethers I was invited to and impromptu visits made to my home! I am not complaining at all about that though, far from it - I did see the humour in the situation, even at the time. I don't believe you can form a truer or more lasting friendship, beyond school days when life-long friendships are most usually and easily forged, than with a Brit.

Having said all that, the Australians I've known and met abroad have come a close second for making the best, friendliest and funniest (as in making you laugh until your sides split) company. Interestingly, I've only visited Australia once for 3 weeks so I'm no 'expert' on the subject, but if I were to sum up the Ozzies from that one admittedly-short visit I don't think either 'friendly' or 'funny' would even make it into the summary as neither of those stood out very strongly as 'characteristic' of the people we met. They were not unfriendly as such, but 'business-like' and 'no nonsense' and somewhat 'officious' was more the attitude we encountered. Funny little world....

Black Sheep

p.s. It occurs to me after being reminded of my Oxfordshire village experience that there is great irony in the fact that I am now having to sell up my home in NZ and move to get away from a grumpy British immigrant neighbour who is impossible to live next to with his logburner smoke pouring into our home all hours most of the year . I don't know if he's just become 'Kiwi-fied' after too many years here or if he was always like that and so was naturally attracted to NZ! (At least I know he's British now, before I knew that he came within a milli-second of knocking both of my kids down backing fast out of his driveway and right over the pavement without looking as they were skipping innocently and happily along it. I just assumed, unfairly as it turns out, that he was a Kiwi - makes me wonder if I may have given Kiwis too much of a bad rap sometimes. I mean, how would one know for sure for instance that all of those 'bad drivers' on the roads here are in fact NZers!!)

Funky Monkey

Hi there.

I disagree about the population bit (point 9).

I won't go over it all but one thing I notice here in Perth is the general space, from the big grounds the schools are set in,the wide roads, paths and even bigger car parking spaces. I really believe the U.K is overcrowded as I used to travel all over the place with work and it almost seemed like towns were joining together. British people here think the freeway into Perth is bad which makes me smile because they have obviously never travelled around the M1 / M25 much. For me very much less populated here

Tr1boy

Well due to work, I've experienced commuting on the M25/M1, Sydney, Perth, Brisbane, Melb, San Francisco, and Bogota. Think I'm 'probably' qualified to answer

The type of response above is the typical response you see from time to time. The issue is not traveling time per se. The big failing of all the Aust cities (esp Sydney) is that driving commuting times (and PT) are disproportionately long compared to the population of the city, and shouldn't be.

A lot of it has to with Australian's failure to accept 'city living', they only want 'city working' and then scuttle off to the sterile 'just add water' lookalike suburbs in which one can admire one's own qtr acre block.

Look at other cities in the world that work well. they all have a sense of belonging to that city and embrace living within it. Aussies seem to want the convenience of steady work but the luxury of space. As usual, they want it both ways (like embracing the underdog tag at sport, but also thinking nobody else can possibly beat them) and clearly this is a situation that cannot be sustained without adding to commuting times.

I think London and British cities in general do a do great job in moving it's people around given the population. There is a sense of city 'we are in this together' when it comes to commuting and infrastructure that will never exist in Oz without a major fundamental shift in its thinking. (certainly amongst its Anglo population anyway).

Bogota has a population of 10mil and running through it's capital is and a main road called Avenida Septima. This is a 8 lane highway, 4each way. But at am peak hrs (weekdays) this road is one way, all 8 lanes, into the city, and in the pm, the opposite. This is a so-called third world country that can reverse the flow of traffic 4 times a day. And what do you see on the road? Buses mainly, not because the population can't afford cars, but because they realise that leaving the car makes sense. They also have 'odds and even' days for driving.And on Sundays all major roads are closed so the population can roller blade, cycle etc. I can't ever imagine the 'me, me, me' populace of Oz ever being so enlightened myself.

The usual response to this is 'oh well if the PT system was better I'd use it' which is real head in the sand stuff IMO. Shift the fundamental thinking and the services will follow. But as usual, Oz wants the ability to drive its car, but whinge about how long takes them whilst steadfastly refusing to embrace any alternative.

And THAT's why it takes a long time to get to work

(I'm late myself now )

camponotus

I think those Top 10 Most Livable Cities things are calculated according to things like (to name just a few example): quality of tap water on average, violent crime rate, frequency of major traffic jams, cleanliness of streets etc.

I guess perhaps Melbourne might score relatively highly in these things, certainly compared to London.

BUT this is NOT THE SAME as being 'better'. I actually do really like Melbourne once you get into the very heart of it...there's loads of very attractive buildings and the city does have a buzz about it with little alley ways and coffee places and trams going around. The trouble for me is the endless, very dull and sprawling suburbs that surround it. I don't like them much at all and would have a British town or village over them any day of the week. I also like the Aussie countryside but getting there means heading out into the proverbial middle of nowhere and it takes ages to reach, which is not the case in the UK.

Olibeneli

Have to say....the above is one of the best ever posts I have read on these forums. You are spot on about the city planning and the need in Oz to think differently for the future population and movement of the workforce via PT.

10/10 for a great explanation.

Tableland

Hi Camponotus

My response:

1)constantly having to think about applying sun-block are no less tiresome.

Constantly? Really? UV levels in Melbourne are only worthy of sun-block for about 4 months of the year.

2)we couldn't find a parking spot for a good twenty minutes or so, perhaps more.

It's a city, so you gotta expect it. It takes me one hour to drive through 25 miles of rural England every morning, and another hour to do the last five miles in the city and find somewhere to park. We all share the nightmare.

3)The public hospital she's going to be giving birth in is no cleaner or more efficient than the one in England.

So it's the same. Wassa problem?

4) People moan about public transport in the UK. The public transport there though is second-to-none compared to the next-to-useless train service here in Melbourne with its dirty seats and graffiti everywhere.

All city transport systems in the UK are dirty and covered in graffiti. ALL.

5) People say the UK is rundown. I've seen so many rundown looking buildings and suburbs in Melbourne I wouldn't even know where to start in listing them.

All western nations have run-down areas. And it's going to get much worsein the next 10 years. Just remember, the mess you see around you is after ten years of uninterrupted boom times.

6)The Aussies have this big thing about being 'up-front' and 'honest' but they often take this too far and it goes into just being rude and brash.

I guess this depends on the kind of Australians you are spending time with. Try some educated ones and see what happens.

7) remember how they spray the planes when you land here? What on earth is that all about?! Laid-back? Hardly.

Pesky pest control gettin' in the way o' mah good times.

8) People in England moan about the TV and Radio broadcasting, but both are infinitely better than in Australia, where the TV and Radio is absolutely rubbish.

Totally. UK TV best in the world. This is because for eight months of the year you have to sit in front of it while the wind and rain traps you indoors. I fancy this is why the British invented so many complex board games.

9) People moan about the amount of people in the UK and point to Australia's enormous size and relatively low population. They forget though that people in Australia are mostly packed into the areas around the cities of Melbourne, Sydney, Perth, Adelaide and Brisbane, so I bet the difference in population density is nothing like what people think it is.

The key word you use here is "mostly". Be one of those brave souls, move out to a lower population area and commute.

10) People say that the UK is expensive. I earn about the same, if not a little more (cos I changed jobs) than I did in the UK but I don't have a bigger flat, a flasher car, more meals out or more holidays than I did in England. Cheaper? Maybe a bit but again not by much at all.

Yes. Australia has more expensive houses and mortgages and lower wages. Know this before you go, allow for it, and don't buy until after the housing crash and you should be OK.

Anyone agree at all?

See above.

meljor

Erm... regarding the 4 months in Melbourne you believe you need to apply sunscreen, there is a hole in the ozone layer above Australia, which 8 months of the year do you believe that it magically heals itself?

Tableland

No there isn't.

With respect, you need to learn about UV radiation. For around half the year in Melbourne the UV levels are usually under 5 and during the most wintery months much lower again (more like 1 or 2) , and these levels are lower than even the UK in high summer. Do you wear sun block every day in a UK summer? Anyone who is applying sun-block in UV 2 is wasting their sun-block, not to mention their time. With regards to the ozone issue, there is no "hole" anywhere. There is an area of depleted ozone in the stratosphere which manifests itself over the Antarctic continent during the spring months, and then the warmer air of the summer circulates the air and the area of depletion is diminished again for another year. The atmosphere is a closed system after all.

meljor

With respect why do I find myself assisting plastic surgeons while they cut skin cancers off people so frequently? The sky here is very clear and cloud free a lot of the winter and summer and offers little protection.

I am fair skinned with red hair so yes I wear UV protection all the time.