crg

You called me a troll a few times before I retaliated.

The new UK passports are not tamper proof. They've already been compromised, and your government has also issued them to people who aren't UK citizens through fraudulent applications.

Let me simplify it for you:


SCENARIO #1:
Mohammed gets ordered deported from the U.S. for criminal behavior.

Mohammed gets his fingerprints added to the system when he is deported.

Mohammed gets a photo substituted UK passport on the black market.

Mohammed shows up at the border and gets busted through his fingerprints under the US VISIT requirement.

Mohammed is arrested.

SCENARIO #2:
Without fingerprints:

Mohammed gets deported from the U.S. back to Pakistan.

Mohammed changes his name to Mohammad.

Mohammad gets refugee status in Sweden, and eventually a Swedish passport.

Mohammad shows up at the border, doesn't get fingerprinted, and gets back in to resume his criminal enterprise and harm America.


P.S. The southern border is a risky place to cross for OTMs (Other Than Mexicans) because OTMs can't be returned to Mexico to try again. OTMs from terrorist source countries are detained, and removed. They aren't sent back to Mexico.

Kocourkov

Neither scenario is very likely and display a base ignorance of European realities. No one flies to Sweden and gets a passport. Then there's the assertion that UK passports are some kind of fake ID for underage college students. Care to show a URL or newspaper article which backs up your assertion.

I guess neither of you guys can make your point, so you make assumptions and argue from there. Always a losing strategy. I'm not British, in the UK or particularly like the place. My points remain unopposed.

Why should fingerprinting and photos work when the rest of the US immigration system is such a wreck and getting worse (NY Times article a couple of days ago)? All we have is assertions from the government that things with this new program will be fine. These are the same folks who said that things will be more efficient with the (former) INS a year ago and two years ago. As we can see, their version of events is far, far, far removed from reality.

Squirrel

Scenario 3) Mohammed gets a Canadian passport and goes through to the US unfingerprinted, surely no more difficult to get than you say a UK passport is.

Scenario 4) Mohammed gets a US passport with a fake US birth certificate.

supernav

>European realities. No one flies to Sweden and gets a passport.

Sweden doesn't have immigration?

>Why should fingerprinting and photos work when the rest of the >US immigration system is such a wreck and getting worse

What kind of reasoning is that? If the rest of the system doesn't work 100% -- just give up?

>Scenario 3) Mohammed gets a Canadian passport and goes >through to the US unfingerprinted, surely no more difficult to get >than you say a UK passport is.

Canada and the US are sharing a lot of information these days and co-operation is only getting tighter to prevent such occurances.

>Scenario 4) Mohammed gets a US passport with a fake US birth >certificate.

He'll get busted so quick with him pretending to be from Iowa it ain't funny.

The reasoning of "If it's broke -- don't fix it" is almost laughable. How can you say that with a straight face?

toodles,

-= nav =-

creed

I’ve just finished reading this thread …. With much amusement and a little embarrassment by a few of the comments by the Brits.

Now, like everyone else, I thought that I would now give my own slant on the subject …, which undoubtedly will be the correct one !!

I’m a brit currently living in Oz, but visiting USA and Canada is definitely at the top of my list of things to do before I die ….

On hearing the planned changes to the US customs/immigration rules I was disappointed that Britain would be treated like every other country with seemingly no regard to the close friendship we have.

I realise that this is just stupid sentiment and my feelings are not important compared to a nations national security (except for maybe France!!) … and after a few pints I was pretty much over it !!

However, I think the point is that after October 2004, will brits really have the time, be bothered or be able to afford to apply for a visa, travel to the US embassy in London, have interviews etc in order to get to the US. I don’t have any issue in having my fingerprints or retina scans on entry to the US (if the US customs could combine laser surgery with the retina scans it could definitely be a selling point!), but as I understand it this is only a temporary measure upto October when the Visa Waiver program ends and the above measures must be accompanied by a full (hard to come by) visa.

Being in Oz, I’m sure I’m not upto date with the current situation, but as I understand it and as the uk media is telling it, after October 2004 it will be very difficult to travel to the US. I’ve read crg’s link which was interesting but make no difference to the current situation unless such measures are passed.

Myself, instead of cursing the very ground Americans walk on, have decided to visit USA and Canada through July and August this year, beating the system you might say. I may have to be fingerprinted, but am very much looking forward to it.

Now for some controversial bits (I’m under the impression that this is mandatory):

The person who inferred that Canada was practically part of the USA … this was highly amusing, I should imagine that saddam Hussein considered Kuwait to be practically part of iraq … nice mentality …. However as Canada is a larger country than USA, on the grounds of the same culture making you practically one country etc, I think that correctly speaking this would make USA practically part of Canada.

On the comment about Canadians spelling ‘Colour’ weirdly … its called English, funny but maybe Canadians didn’t have the need to spell words how you say them!!

On the comment about brits ‘having national ID cards so whets the issue’, Britain doesn’t have national ID cards, most brits don’t have a photo on their driving license and you do not get finger printed in Britain unless your suspected of a crime. Personally, I think the ID card is good idea, however a lot of brits feel its an infringement of our civil rights, stupid I know, however as Americans you must know how stupid beliefs in certain civil rights are …. The right to bear arms for instance.

Our passports are far more advanced that you seem to think, all passports are machine-readable and our photos are digitally imprinted on tamperproof laminated paper ….. making it impossible to swap photos like on older versions of the passports.

Lastly, all this rubbish about WWII and who helped whom, get over it, we won by working together …. Hopefully one day we will be able to say the same thing about terrorism … and not argue about who was the ultimate savour … although I suspect it will be Britain !!

crg

I'm not saying that he'll get the Swedish passport the day he lands. However, if someone is convicted of a crime, deported from the U.S. and then gets asylum in Sweden, he can qualify for Swedish citizenship after a few short years as a Swedish resident. Once he gets his Swedish citizenship he then gets visa free access to the United States?

ANSWER THIS QUESTION:
How, aside from checking his fingerprints, does the U.S. keep this criminal out, while still allowing a visa waiver program to exist for everyone else?

Also, I don't need a web news story to confirm what I already know, but if you want to read about it see below. I especially like the article about the Madrid railway bomber using a forged Belgian passport to enter Spain. It was probably the same type of passport the U.S. stopped accepting without a visa about a year ago.

http://www.house.gov/judiciary/ashb0210.htm

Madrid bomb suspect had forged Belgian passport
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_...&story_id=6295

Cracking Down on Passport ID Fraud
LONDON, December 6 /PRNewswire/ -- The Government's drive to tackle ID fraud will be stepped up today (Monday 8 December) as new security processes go live to help stop criminals using lost or stolen passports.
http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=113481

"A MYSTERY man linked to a huge passport scam used SIX fake names and detectives still have no idea who he really is. Irfan was linked to one of the most sophisticated fake passport rackets ever smashed in Britain (The Sun, UK)."

Passport scam hides influx of asylum seekers
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homea...101842,00.html

"Interpol says hundreds of thousands of stolen passport blanks aid ... 29 Feb 2004
Interpol says hundreds of thousands of stolen passport blanks aid terrorists 11:55 AM EST Feb 29. LYON, France (AP) - Stolen blank passports in the hundreds of thousands, along with millions of other virgin documents, allow known terrorists to breeze across borders, Interpol officials said (CBC News, Canada)."

"Passport forgery immigrants jailed Feb 27 2004"
http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100n...name_page.html

"Singapore explores biometric technology amid rise in passport abuse. SINGAPORE (AP) - Singapore said Friday that it's exploring technology that allows officials to match people's faces to information coded into their travel documents, following a dramatic increase in passport abuse cases last year (Canada.com, Canada). "

Police bust forged passport racket
http://www.dailynews.lk/2004/02/07/new13.html

Steve

Extract from a letter to The Times, about 10 days ago:

"My 67-year-old husband, a respectable law professor and barrister,
was detained at Miami airport because his fingerprints did not match
the fingerprints he gave on entering the country a month before. (He
had the same fingers with him on both occasions)."

So the system is not 100% reliable and travellers should not be
mistreated because of it.

Btw, does anyone have reliable information whether fingerprints are
detained indefinitely to create the biggest database on Earth, or
deleted once the match is made on departure?

Btw, even if the system were perfect, the only thing it would tell you
whether someone is still in the country, it won't help you to find
them, so illegals will stay on unless they are picked for some other
reason such as a traffic violation.

As far as I remember, at least some of the hijackers were in the US
legally, they applied for extensions or change of status, which was
even approved. There was intelligence, which was not acted on, this
was the biggest problem, not the lack of fingerprints.

Steve

crg

I imagine he put the wrong fingers down when he initially registered. He could easily have put right index on the scanner first by mistake.

"Btw, even if the system were perfect, the only thing it would tell you whether someone is still in the country"

It will also detect if a criminal, fugitive, or prior immigration violator is using a passport that has been altered. UK passports are easily altered and are often used by criminals to enter the US. They are popular because they don't need a visa to enter. Since the UK doesn't have a biometric passport, the fingerprints or a visa are needed.

I think a barrister is the same thing as a lawyer. So "respectable barrister" must be an oxymoron. There's just no such thing.

How would you equate being delayed by a visit to immigration secondary to being mistreated? Did they say he was mistreated?

It sounds more like a minor inconvenience. The man was probably out of secondary before his luggage came out. I doubt the families of 3000 dead Americans care much about this person's inconvenience.

CalgaryAMC

It isn't. But in any event his profession is irrelevant to this case.

Nor might the families of the 67 British victims, or the families of the scores of other non-American victims.

The question is not about inconvenience; the question in this particular case is whether or not the integrity of the system has been shown to be compromised.

You exhibit the standard mindset that cannot equate any measure of personal rights with the need for security. These two things can feature in the same equation.

crg

*sigh* Did they kick the guy out? Did they lock him up? Was he tortured? He had to go to an office and get it straightened out. I'm sure they didn't stick this guy under bright lights and put bamboo under his fingernails.

You have to know that when you APPLY to enter a foreign country, and you are applying, that you are waiving many of your rights. You don't have a right to a lawyer, to refuse a search, to have a phone call, to remain silent, to go back home if you choose, or even contact your government until a decision is made on your application. If these rights are important to you, then you shouldn't travel internationally to any country because you won't have them when you get there.

You're making it sound like the US gov't kidnapped this person from his home.

If an older person's fingers are worn, or they put the wrong finger down last time, should you hold up the whole queue and delay everyone, or go to secondary to straighten it out? The airlines lose luggage and have delays all the time. The airport security lines are slow. Do you think this infringes on someone's right to get on a plane quickly? Should it be as easy to enter the US as it is to buy a pack of smokes, or get into a pub?

I bet they just accessed the man's photo from the last visit, and sent him on his way.

I do think there's a reasonable limit, and this is more than reasonable.

supernav

The INS confiscated 130 THOUSAND fake border crossing cards from mexican citizens over the past few years.

Let that sink in. 130 *THOUSAND* of them.

proof:
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.p...4a7_bordercard

So what's the conclusion? Documents are useless as a security device. Anyone can find a way to duplicate them. If currency can get duplicated to the tee, .. passports are a cakewalk.

Biometrics is the only fool-proof way. Yes it's still in it's infancy and some problems exist -- but the technology is rapidly-growing, and companies in this sector are seeing huge business worldwide.

So expect biometric security and inspection to be around for quite a while. The US (once again) is becoming a leader in new technology, and in a few years, even your European countries will be using the latest in Japanese and Chinese biometric technologies to insure you are who you say you are.

-= nav =-

CalgaryAMC

In a posted in this thread dated 06 April, I stated that I am in fully support of biometric technology in the interests of security.

To repeat my last post, "The question is not about inconvenience; the question in this particular case is whether or not the integrity of the system has been shown to be compromised."

I am unconcerned that this person was subject to torture or anything other than inconvenience.

I am concerned, however, that a system that cannot correctly identify the same person twice cannot effectively serve this purpose. If a terrorist can circumvent detection by using his left finger instead of his right finger on the machine, then that is something to think about.

As an aside on biometric technology, aimed particularly at supernav who writes as though many of us have never seen or heard of this technology: my office in London had biometric security for site access since 1997; my office in Canada implemented biometric scanning to act as a time punch-card in 2000. I said in my April 6th post, biometrics is becoming an everyday part of life; I have no qualms with it.

Kocourkov

Stop using the WTC bombings to justify every idiot point of view that you may have. You sound exactly like some of the Hamas people who want to justify whatever actions they undertake because their beloved leaders keep getting blown to smithereens (and with good reason, in the opinions of many).

You still haven't said thing number one about why this is an effective technology and why it should be implemented, souring relations with many overseas allies. But, it's all the same to you. You do not seem like the type to have ever lived abroad or even have some kind of a facility with another language.

Gives you something to think about while wolfing down that second tub of ice cream this afternoon. (Or maybe even, shriek, on the treadmill!)

crg

I keep raising points on why this is needed to curb visa waiver passport fraud, but you must be ignoring that. I'm still waiting for you to respond with an effective way for the US to filter out all of the criminals using europe's weak passport security.

I speak Spanish and English. I've visited Europe. I've worked counter-terror duties, at the sharp end of the spear. I'm highly proficient in the detection of fraudulent travel documents.

It is not yet an effective technology to see who has stayed illegaly in the US because there is no departure control yet.

It is effective in catching those with altered or forged visa waiver passports who have also been deported from the US, or have criminal records or are fugitives.

It needs to be implemented because several visa waiver countries are still using hand-written passport biographical pages and other documents that are easily altered. Even the newest UK passport has been compromised. Since they are fingerprinting people with visas, criminals seeking to illegally enter the US have switched to altered visa waiver country passports, stolen blanks passports, and fraudulently obtained visa waiver country passports. Even the worst fake passport only has to get past the airline employees. Once at the border these people are sometimes detected, and claim political asylum which keeps them in the US for years fighting through the courts while collecting public assistance. While here they may have a few US children as well using medical and educational resources. Also, a large number of people from the third world are receiving european citizenship each day and using that as a springboard to enter and remain in the US. Some of them have been previously deported from the US, but now can come with only their passport.

Brazilians are being deported, then coming back as Portugese due to family links. Dominicans are coming back with Netherlands passports. Jamaica, Nigeria, St Lucia, Barbados etc are coming back with UK passports. Irish are coming back as UK and vice versa. Chinese are coming back with Portugal passports claiming they were born in Maccau, and also Singapore, and Japanese passports.

Versions of this system have been around for five years. It was created in response to a serial killer named Rafael Resendez-Ramirez who was repeatedly caught and released by the border patrol. They couldn't figure out who he was so he was set free to kill again. That is how the fingerprinting technology first came to the border, and it has been used ever since. If the fingerprinting system was operating, at least 8 Americans could still be alive today. This killer should have been stopped.

The government's #1 duty is to protect the American people. Tourism and international good will isn't even in the top ten.

http://www.cnn.com/US/9907/03/ins.ramirez.01/

I look forward to your answer to how the US can detect a previously deported criminal alien who is attempting entry using a visa waiver passport. I again challenge you to respond to that question.