America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
Apr 5th 2004, 8:02 pm
#46
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 39
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
I love some of the American trolls on here. They truely demonstrate a complete incomprehension of the world outside their hermetically-sealed, air-conditioned lives.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I was gong to go to Shanghai on business and a little vacation with my girlfriend. First, we get BBC World broadcasting a protest in Beijing about some uninhabited islands that Japan has and China claims, with some jackass identified as Mr. Wang claiming that Japan was militaristic. With that, girlfriend decides not to go. Next, I read that China is making some changes to their set visa policy, but I can't get any info and I'm making plans. So, I say 'screw it' too. Maybe the business will happen later, maybe it won't, but the local economy is definitely out Euro 1,200.
The US is going to lose a lot of people who would otherwise (peacefully) come, spend money and leave. It's not about security, it's about the administration looking like they're doing something.
It says "Screw you" to the countries which America suckered into the quagmire called Iraq. From the American point of view, this comment is incomprehensible, but most all Americans I know of don't in the least try to fathom what the rest of the world might be thinking. They can only comprehend things when centred in and on the US.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I was gong to go to Shanghai on business and a little vacation with my girlfriend. First, we get BBC World broadcasting a protest in Beijing about some uninhabited islands that Japan has and China claims, with some jackass identified as Mr. Wang claiming that Japan was militaristic. With that, girlfriend decides not to go. Next, I read that China is making some changes to their set visa policy, but I can't get any info and I'm making plans. So, I say 'screw it' too. Maybe the business will happen later, maybe it won't, but the local economy is definitely out Euro 1,200.
The US is going to lose a lot of people who would otherwise (peacefully) come, spend money and leave. It's not about security, it's about the administration looking like they're doing something.
It says "Screw you" to the countries which America suckered into the quagmire called Iraq. From the American point of view, this comment is incomprehensible, but most all Americans I know of don't in the least try to fathom what the rest of the world might be thinking. They can only comprehend things when centred in and on the US.
Last edited by Kocourkov; Apr 5th 2004 at 8:04 pm.
Apr 5th 2004, 8:32 pm
#47
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
crg14624 wrote:
>
> So you're
> saying the U.S. government should single out only Middle Eastern looking
> UK citizens for extra scrutiny?
Without being racist, I say it wouldn't be wrong to concentrate on Arabs
/ Middle Easterners -as (partially) already done-, regardless of their
citizenship. It's 19 of them who carried out 9/11. It's their fellows
who bombed the Kenya/Tanzania U.S. embassies. It's them who hate the US
at most (for whatever reason).
It's their religion which is most militant towards pork-eaters. It's
them who pose by far the greatest threat to U.S. national security.
If with equal costs, the border guards could a) screen everyone seeking
entry in the same standard way or b) have different screening levels
with regards to the cultural/national/religious background of a visitor,
which method would protect better against harmful visitors?
Maybe they should also install separate
> lunch counters, and drinking fountains for them?
>
What would this be good for?
>
> So you're
> saying the U.S. government should single out only Middle Eastern looking
> UK citizens for extra scrutiny?
Without being racist, I say it wouldn't be wrong to concentrate on Arabs
/ Middle Easterners -as (partially) already done-, regardless of their
citizenship. It's 19 of them who carried out 9/11. It's their fellows
who bombed the Kenya/Tanzania U.S. embassies. It's them who hate the US
at most (for whatever reason).
It's their religion which is most militant towards pork-eaters. It's
them who pose by far the greatest threat to U.S. national security.
If with equal costs, the border guards could a) screen everyone seeking
entry in the same standard way or b) have different screening levels
with regards to the cultural/national/religious background of a visitor,
which method would protect better against harmful visitors?
Maybe they should also install separate
> lunch counters, and drinking fountains for them?
>
What would this be good for?
Apr 5th 2004, 8:43 pm
#48
American Expat
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,598
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
Originally posted by Ursus Polaris
crg14624 wrote:
>
> So you're
> saying the U.S. government should single out only Middle Eastern looking
> UK citizens for extra scrutiny?
Without being racist, I say it wouldn't be wrong to concentrate on Arabs
/ Middle Easterners -as (partially) already done-, regardless of their
citizenship. It's 19 of them who carried out 9/11. It's their fellows
who bombed the Kenya/Tanzania U.S. embassies. It's them who hate the US
at most (for whatever reason).
It's their religion which is most militant towards pork-eaters. It's
them who pose by far the greatest threat to U.S. national security.
If with equal costs, the border guards could a) screen everyone seeking
entry in the same standard way or b) have different screening levels
with regards to the cultural/national/religious background of a visitor,
which method would protect better against harmful visitors?
Maybe they should also install separate
> lunch counters, and drinking fountains for them?
>
What would this be good for?
crg14624 wrote:
>
> So you're
> saying the U.S. government should single out only Middle Eastern looking
> UK citizens for extra scrutiny?
Without being racist, I say it wouldn't be wrong to concentrate on Arabs
/ Middle Easterners -as (partially) already done-, regardless of their
citizenship. It's 19 of them who carried out 9/11. It's their fellows
who bombed the Kenya/Tanzania U.S. embassies. It's them who hate the US
at most (for whatever reason).
It's their religion which is most militant towards pork-eaters. It's
them who pose by far the greatest threat to U.S. national security.
If with equal costs, the border guards could a) screen everyone seeking
entry in the same standard way or b) have different screening levels
with regards to the cultural/national/religious background of a visitor,
which method would protect better against harmful visitors?
Maybe they should also install separate
> lunch counters, and drinking fountains for them?
>
What would this be good for?
What about terrorists from the Phillipines, and Chechnya? There are Muslim extremists with blond hair, and blue eyes.
Apr 5th 2004, 8:50 pm
#49
American Expat
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,598
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
Originally posted by Kocourkov
I love some of the American trolls on here. They truely demonstrate a complete incomprehension of the world outside their hermetically-sealed, air-conditioned lives.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I was gong to go to Shanghai on business and a little vacation with my girlfriend. First, we get BBC World broadcasting a protest in Beijing about some uninhabited islands that Japan has and China claims, with some jackass identified as Mr. Wang claiming that Japan was militaristic. With that, girlfriend decides not to go. Next, I read that China is making some changes to their set visa policy, but I can't get any info and I'm making plans. So, I say 'screw it' too. Maybe the business will happen later, maybe it won't, but the local economy is definitely out Euro 1,200.
The US is going to lose a lot of people who would otherwise (peacefully) come, spend money and leave. It's not about security, it's about the administration looking like they're doing something.
It says "Screw you" to the countries which America suckered into the quagmire called Iraq. From the American point of view, this comment is incomprehensible, but most all Americans I know of don't in the least try to fathom what the rest of the world might be thinking. They can only comprehend things when centred in and on the US.
I love some of the American trolls on here. They truely demonstrate a complete incomprehension of the world outside their hermetically-sealed, air-conditioned lives.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about. I was gong to go to Shanghai on business and a little vacation with my girlfriend. First, we get BBC World broadcasting a protest in Beijing about some uninhabited islands that Japan has and China claims, with some jackass identified as Mr. Wang claiming that Japan was militaristic. With that, girlfriend decides not to go. Next, I read that China is making some changes to their set visa policy, but I can't get any info and I'm making plans. So, I say 'screw it' too. Maybe the business will happen later, maybe it won't, but the local economy is definitely out Euro 1,200.
The US is going to lose a lot of people who would otherwise (peacefully) come, spend money and leave. It's not about security, it's about the administration looking like they're doing something.
It says "Screw you" to the countries which America suckered into the quagmire called Iraq. From the American point of view, this comment is incomprehensible, but most all Americans I know of don't in the least try to fathom what the rest of the world might be thinking. They can only comprehend things when centred in and on the US.
Why don't youwant to give fingerprints? What are you afraid of? I gave my fingerprints to get a job, and a firearm permit.
It sounds like you'll be giving them soon anyway. Britain is getting ready to have a compulsory national ID card. We don't have that here.
Apr 5th 2004, 9:06 pm
#50
American Expat
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,598
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
Originally posted by Bob Todd
> You pay the $6 when you fly as well. It's
> included in your airplane ticket. The $6 is used to cover the
> administrative costs of processing your I-94. Should the American tax
> payer have to foot the bill for your shopping trip?
The point is that the Canadians didn't need to fill out an I94 and I did,
the Canadians have not backed you up in Iraq but we have, are you following
me here?
> News Flash: You
> are not a Canadian.
Did I say I was, if you were paying attention you would realise this thread
is about treatment of UK vivitors. Hint: read the subject line.
> News Flash: Canadians who need an I-94 for going
> to school, working, and getting married also pay the $6 for the form.
I wasn't going to school, working or getting married.
> If you don't like it, stay home. Oh, and thanks for your $6. Notice
> that you still paid it.
So I should have refused and screwed it up for everyone, no thanks I'm
British, not selfish.
> You pay the $6 when you fly as well. It's
> included in your airplane ticket. The $6 is used to cover the
> administrative costs of processing your I-94. Should the American tax
> payer have to foot the bill for your shopping trip?
The point is that the Canadians didn't need to fill out an I94 and I did,
the Canadians have not backed you up in Iraq but we have, are you following
me here?
> News Flash: You
> are not a Canadian.
Did I say I was, if you were paying attention you would realise this thread
is about treatment of UK vivitors. Hint: read the subject line.
> News Flash: Canadians who need an I-94 for going
> to school, working, and getting married also pay the $6 for the form.
I wasn't going to school, working or getting married.
> If you don't like it, stay home. Oh, and thanks for your $6. Notice
> that you still paid it.
So I should have refused and screwed it up for everyone, no thanks I'm
British, not selfish.
You are required to be documented because you're not from Canada or Bermuda. Only 35 million people on the planet get that break. Everyone else is documented. Spain has a similar form.
Until March 2003, the US allowed anyone landed in Canada from anywhere in the British Commonwealth to enter the US without even having a passport. That included Ireland, Britian, Australia, and New Zealand. However it also included India, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Malaysia, Nigeria, Lesotho, Jamaica and like 30 other countries.
Under the old rules, you could have gotten a Canadian Border Crossing card, and been exempt the $6 fee.
Congress mandates that the cost is passed on to the traveler.
The fingerprinting is a compromise. They were considering making you all get visas for $100 a pop, and also fingerprinting you at the consulate.
Apr 5th 2004, 9:40 pm
#51
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
Remember, you are talking to people who think terrorism started on 9/11.
US television is quite sickening in it's one sided, totally biased and
uninformative commentary.
My guess is drv1 watches too much CNN.
"Squirrel" <member21819@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Originally posted by drvr1
> > So what that you supported
> the war? Any way you are not doing any major combat.
> >
> > All this
> for a little ident. information? Get over it.
> No major
> combat? God you Americans do not deserve any help with your arrogant
> attitude. Do you not know we have lost a lot of our soldiers in
> Afganistan as well as Iraq, quite a few of them not from 'enemy fire'
> but shot by US troops.
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
US television is quite sickening in it's one sided, totally biased and
uninformative commentary.
My guess is drv1 watches too much CNN.
"Squirrel" <member21819@british_expats.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Originally posted by drvr1
> > So what that you supported
> the war? Any way you are not doing any major combat.
> >
> > All this
> for a little ident. information? Get over it.
> No major
> combat? God you Americans do not deserve any help with your arrogant
> attitude. Do you not know we have lost a lot of our soldiers in
> Afganistan as well as Iraq, quite a few of them not from 'enemy fire'
> but shot by US troops.
> --
> Posted via http://britishexpats.com
Apr 5th 2004, 9:43 pm
#52
Just Joined
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
crg14624 you dont get it bro. Its not about getting fingerprinted - that isnt the issue (well not the one im making)
Its the point that your Government wants to keep EVERYONE out - but at the same time dont want any sanctions against your own people.
I have no problem getting fingerprinted - they even want to take retina scans.
But imagine a 60 yr old grand mother who wants to take a trip to Disney with her gran children. She has to travel all the way to the US Embassey in London - wait ALL day - have fingerprints and retina scans and be interviewed like she wants to move their or something - and then she could be denied a visa and then NEVER get access to the usa ever again . EVER.
And all of this at her own cost which no doubt wouldnt be able to afford after saving up for 10 years to take her grand kids to Disney.
ALL British citizens have to go through this process from October 2004. There is no visa waiver any more.
Plus even if you were arrested for some bullshit offence like drunken disorderly or whetevr - you will get DENIED first time and will never be able to travel to the USA.
Its political correctness and paranoia gone absolutley mad. This policy is going to seriosuley bite America on the ass very soon. Don't forget billions in tourist dollars come into your contry. Tourism = Jobs. If you want real news about your country that isnt screened and if you really want to know whats going on in the world I suggest you use www.sky.com instead of cnn.
Its getting really bad bro - since I started to apply for my visa they have changed the wordings on the application forms TWICE in 3 weeks.
It blows.
Its the point that your Government wants to keep EVERYONE out - but at the same time dont want any sanctions against your own people.
I have no problem getting fingerprinted - they even want to take retina scans.
But imagine a 60 yr old grand mother who wants to take a trip to Disney with her gran children. She has to travel all the way to the US Embassey in London - wait ALL day - have fingerprints and retina scans and be interviewed like she wants to move their or something - and then she could be denied a visa and then NEVER get access to the usa ever again . EVER.
And all of this at her own cost which no doubt wouldnt be able to afford after saving up for 10 years to take her grand kids to Disney.
ALL British citizens have to go through this process from October 2004. There is no visa waiver any more.
Plus even if you were arrested for some bullshit offence like drunken disorderly or whetevr - you will get DENIED first time and will never be able to travel to the USA.
Its political correctness and paranoia gone absolutley mad. This policy is going to seriosuley bite America on the ass very soon. Don't forget billions in tourist dollars come into your contry. Tourism = Jobs. If you want real news about your country that isnt screened and if you really want to know whats going on in the world I suggest you use www.sky.com instead of cnn.
Its getting really bad bro - since I started to apply for my visa they have changed the wordings on the application forms TWICE in 3 weeks.
It blows.
Apr 5th 2004, 10:10 pm
#53
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
>WE LIKE paying taxes so that we have some service. WE LIKE electing despots
>for
>several terms - that is why we elect majority governments.
So do some parts of the USA. Ever been to New York? San Fransisco?
>While we may share some values, the culture of the two countries (if there is
>such
>a thing as Canadian culture and US culture) is different - not better, just
>different.
Are you kidding me?? In what ways? Having spent much time in Canada, having
married a Canadian and having Canadian TV in our home (Expressvu) in Atlanta,
tells me that we are the SAME culturally. Same language, same accent and, while
Canadians spell some words funny (like Colour), the speak them just like we do.
Same TV shows too.
>Values are different too. Drinking is legal if you are 18 and Canadians
>generally
>don't argue with that.
That is because you don't have busy bodies like MADD over there. It used to be
18 here too (and in fact it still is unofficially because 18 year olds can
enter bars and once inside, getting a beer is not hard).
>Canada allows "gay" marrage, with not much fuss (yet),
>while we all read what happens in the USA.
It depends on where in the USA you are. What is accpetable in New York or San
Fransisco is not in Birmingham or Wichita. The problem with gay marriage is
that marriage has always been recognized in all states if performed anywhere in
the country- or out of the country in my case. We were married in Canada and
Georgia recognizes me and my wife as a legally married couple. There are places
in the USA like Boston, NYC and San Fransisco where gay marriage is perfectly
OK. The problem is that other places like Alabama or Kansas have a differing
view and do not wish to recognize such unions. So we have to work it out to
please all people (I personally think Civil Unions are the way to go).
>for
>several terms - that is why we elect majority governments.
So do some parts of the USA. Ever been to New York? San Fransisco?
>While we may share some values, the culture of the two countries (if there is
>such
>a thing as Canadian culture and US culture) is different - not better, just
>different.
Are you kidding me?? In what ways? Having spent much time in Canada, having
married a Canadian and having Canadian TV in our home (Expressvu) in Atlanta,
tells me that we are the SAME culturally. Same language, same accent and, while
Canadians spell some words funny (like Colour), the speak them just like we do.
Same TV shows too.
>Values are different too. Drinking is legal if you are 18 and Canadians
>generally
>don't argue with that.
That is because you don't have busy bodies like MADD over there. It used to be
18 here too (and in fact it still is unofficially because 18 year olds can
enter bars and once inside, getting a beer is not hard).
>Canada allows "gay" marrage, with not much fuss (yet),
>while we all read what happens in the USA.
It depends on where in the USA you are. What is accpetable in New York or San
Fransisco is not in Birmingham or Wichita. The problem with gay marriage is
that marriage has always been recognized in all states if performed anywhere in
the country- or out of the country in my case. We were married in Canada and
Georgia recognizes me and my wife as a legally married couple. There are places
in the USA like Boston, NYC and San Fransisco where gay marriage is perfectly
OK. The problem is that other places like Alabama or Kansas have a differing
view and do not wish to recognize such unions. So we have to work it out to
please all people (I personally think Civil Unions are the way to go).
Apr 5th 2004, 10:12 pm
#54
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
>It makes no sense to me to say 'Canadians are not interested in
>terrorising the US.' Neither is the UK.
Neither country as a whole do but we have already caught a Canadian trying to
sneak a bomb into Washington state and Richard Reid was a Brit. We have to be
careful. We cannot afford anymore 9-11s.
>terrorising the US.' Neither is the UK.
Neither country as a whole do but we have already caught a Canadian trying to
sneak a bomb into Washington state and Richard Reid was a Brit. We have to be
careful. We cannot afford anymore 9-11s.
Apr 5th 2004, 10:13 pm
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
>If it's really that fair, why did Colin Powell immediately protest when
>Brazil begun to fingerprint U.S. citizens at its ports of entry?
I don't know why. I have no problem being printed if I go to Brazil or any
country that wishes to do so inclusing yours. All countries have a right to
know who is there, why they are there and how long they are there.
>Brazil begun to fingerprint U.S. citizens at its ports of entry?
I don't know why. I have no problem being printed if I go to Brazil or any
country that wishes to do so inclusing yours. All countries have a right to
know who is there, why they are there and how long they are there.
Apr 5th 2004, 10:15 pm
#56
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
>Id rather visit Canada in future - they don't have the almost Nazi
>fanatical INS types growling in your face when you arrive with your
>vacation suitcase!!
They might not fingerprint you but I have been subjected to more than one
border interrogation by Canadian customs. And they are not always pleasant.
>fanatical INS types growling in your face when you arrive with your
>vacation suitcase!!
They might not fingerprint you but I have been subjected to more than one
border interrogation by Canadian customs. And they are not always pleasant.
Apr 5th 2004, 10:17 pm
#57
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
>This of course has not changed my feelings one bit towards the American
>people, of whom I have tremendous respect, but your Government can kiss my
>Limey arse. I hope I have made my feelings clear on this matter.
Well I married a Canadian and the US govt can kiss my ass too- and I am
American. But the subject of security is important. We have to know who is here
and what they are doing here.
>people, of whom I have tremendous respect, but your Government can kiss my
>Limey arse. I hope I have made my feelings clear on this matter.
Well I married a Canadian and the US govt can kiss my ass too- and I am
American. But the subject of security is important. We have to know who is here
and what they are doing here.
Apr 5th 2004, 10:19 pm
#58
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
>I have trouble believing that a government will destroy information it
>has collected. They will probably save it just becausee they can
The law requires the information be destroyed once you leave the country. It is
not kept nor is it forwarded to any foreign country.
>has collected. They will probably save it just becausee they can
The law requires the information be destroyed once you leave the country. It is
not kept nor is it forwarded to any foreign country.
Apr 5th 2004, 10:31 pm
#59
American Expat
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 7,598
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
Originally posted by CharlieDLC
crg14624 you dont get it bro. Its not about getting fingerprinted - that isnt the issue (well not the one im making)
Its the point that your Government wants to keep EVERYONE out - but at the same time dont want any sanctions against your own people.
I have no problem getting fingerprinted - they even want to take retina scans.
But imagine a 60 yr old grand mother who wants to take a trip to Disney with her gran children. She has to travel all the way to the US Embassey in London - wait ALL day - have fingerprints and retina scans and be interviewed like she wants to move their or something - and then she could be denied a visa and then NEVER get access to the usa ever again . EVER.
And all of this at her own cost which no doubt wouldnt be able to afford after saving up for 10 years to take her grand kids to Disney.
ALL British citizens have to go through this process from October 2004. There is no visa waiver any more.
Plus even if you were arrested for some bullshit offence like drunken disorderly or whetevr - you will get DENIED first time and will never be able to travel to the USA.
Its political correctness and paranoia gone absolutley mad. This policy is going to seriosuley bite America on the ass very soon. Don't forget billions in tourist dollars come into your contry. Tourism = Jobs. If you want real news about your country that isnt screened and if you really want to know whats going on in the world I suggest you use www.sky.com instead of cnn.
Its getting really bad bro - since I started to apply for my visa they have changed the wordings on the application forms TWICE in 3 weeks.
It blows.
crg14624 you dont get it bro. Its not about getting fingerprinted - that isnt the issue (well not the one im making)
Its the point that your Government wants to keep EVERYONE out - but at the same time dont want any sanctions against your own people.
I have no problem getting fingerprinted - they even want to take retina scans.
But imagine a 60 yr old grand mother who wants to take a trip to Disney with her gran children. She has to travel all the way to the US Embassey in London - wait ALL day - have fingerprints and retina scans and be interviewed like she wants to move their or something - and then she could be denied a visa and then NEVER get access to the usa ever again . EVER.
And all of this at her own cost which no doubt wouldnt be able to afford after saving up for 10 years to take her grand kids to Disney.
ALL British citizens have to go through this process from October 2004. There is no visa waiver any more.
Plus even if you were arrested for some bullshit offence like drunken disorderly or whetevr - you will get DENIED first time and will never be able to travel to the USA.
Its political correctness and paranoia gone absolutley mad. This policy is going to seriosuley bite America on the ass very soon. Don't forget billions in tourist dollars come into your contry. Tourism = Jobs. If you want real news about your country that isnt screened and if you really want to know whats going on in the world I suggest you use www.sky.com instead of cnn.
Its getting really bad bro - since I started to apply for my visa they have changed the wordings on the application forms TWICE in 3 weeks.
It blows.
Incorrect. Visa waiver is not going away. The government is trying to extend the deadline for biometric passports. The applicants will have two fingers scanned at the border, and fill out a visa waiver form.
http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0404/040204c1.htm
"Plus even if you were arrested for some bullshit offence like drunken disorderly or whetevr - you will get DENIED first time and will never be able to travel to the USA."
Incorrect: Drunk and disorderly convictions, even a dozen of them would not make you inadmissible to the United States. They only keep people out for drug offenses, and crimes involving moral turpitude. CIMTs include rape, assault with a deadly weapon, murder, theft, fraud, arson, and kidnapping. Even if you have a CIMT conviction, you can get a waiver if you stay out of trouble for a few years.
So many people are entering our country with falsified visa waiver country passports, it's insane. Many of them are hardened criminals. We need to start checking better, or they will ruin the visa waiver program for everyone.
I like the U.K. and think you have a great country. I would like to visit there someday. You have to understand that it isn't just about the U.K. people. It's about bad people who obtain U.K passports and then use them to enter and harm America. It's happening now.
I wouldn't be caught dead watching CNN. I watch Fox News, which, I believe, is owned by the same guy who run Sky News.
Why are you applying for a visa?
Apr 5th 2004, 10:49 pm
#60
Forum Regular
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 39
Re: America loses the plot - and UK tourists!
Fox ?! Hah! Try BBC.