dave2003

Lots of comment in the MSM here in the UK regarding the position of E.U. citizens resident in the UK, and the government's position with regard to their status after Brexit-that is no guarantee. However, I cannot find a definitive statement from the E.U. regarding the position of UK citizens resident in E.U. countries after Brexit. Will they be offered any guarantees, or is it incumbent only on the UK to offer guarantees prior to Brexit and the leaving terms?


In my extended family there are Spanish, French and Italian borne members, along with their children, who are not concerned-who, like me, find it very unlikely that the UK will abruptly deport 3 million E.U. citizens, and that the E.U. will likewise send about 1 million Brits back home.

Editha

Sorry, I don't know what MSM stands for.

It isn't just a question of being deported or not. It is very complex, involving 'residence definitions, pension rights, unborn children, the ability to move, claim benefits, marry, divorce, even commit crime and avoid deportation,' (from the FT Feb 20th).

The FT article goes on to outline some of the difficulties. Since the FT has a paywall, I'll summarise:

1. There is no register of when expats arrived in their current place of residence. So even if some rights are guaranteed, expats will still have to show eligibility.

2. The right to remain is just part of an EU citizen's rights. Others are work rights, welfare access, health provision, discounted student fees, and the right to draw a state pension up to 50 years from now. Not all expats are the same. You currently get different rights according to whether you are a worker, student, pensioner or jobseeker.

Maintaining existing rights is politically tricky for Theresa May. Just this weekend the Times was drawing attention to the right of EU migrants to claim child benefit for children back home in Warsaw or wherever. The EU will want a guarantee that will continue, but May's problem is that it was actually part of the Tory election manifesto to abolish it. Obviously, if that right is withdrawn, the EU is likely to play tit for tat with British expats.

Another example is pensions. At the moment, if you live in an EU country while claiming a state pension, then you get the annual increase, unlike people in Canada, Australia etc. But that will end without an agreement with the EU.

Editha

Theresa May is going to invoke Article 50 this week. It has generally been presumed that any preserved rights for EU citizens will only apply to people who arrive before Article 50 is invoked.

Therefore, the OP should assume that in two years time she and her spouse will have to satisfy the income and capital requirements for a spouse visa that currently apply to couples from outside the EU.

HKG3

Given the OP's comes back to the UK from Spain, I will use a Spanish example.

The UK and Spain had agreed on a convention on social security with protocol on health care in 1974.

http://treaties.fco.gov.uk/docs/pdf/1975/TS0069.pdf

I accept that new talks may need to take place to account for the social security changes that took place over the last 40 years, but the 1974 convention, if still valid, provided some protection.

Editha

Yes, the FT article referred to prior legislation with individual EU countries. Apparently there is an Anglo-Finnish agreement on the disposal of the effects of deceased seamen.

HKG3

This is the full text of the said agreement -

http://treaties.fco.gov.uk/docs/pdf/1924/TS0007.pdf

Editha

I'll study it later.

SpaintoUK

So after negotiations start next week, it would be as though we are non EU citizens of we want to move? Work visas etc will be necessary? ... or is this all just presumption?

Editha

The UK is still in the EU for the next two years. So, your Spanish citizen husband will still have the right to live and work here until the two years are up.

But, at the end of that time, when the UK is no longer part of the EU, he is unlikely to find that transitional arrangements give him the right to stay. That is because he arrived after Article 50 was invoked. At that point you will have to satisfy the requirements for a spouse visa that already apply to non-EU citizens.

That is just a best guess. Nothing is certain.

Editha

STOP PRESS:

Quote:

The European parliament will veto any Brexit deal that prevents EU citizens who move to the UK during the next two years from having the same rights to live and work in Britain as those already in the country.

verystormy

What it says is that they will veto any rights changes while the UK is a member of the EU. That does not mean that May will still be able to set legislation - which will have to come in, in some form, for visas for EU citizens and which EU citizens are permitted visa free permit to stay. My guess is that the day after we actually leave, EU citizens that have arrived after Art50 will be notified they are not legal.


Also very likely that EU citizens permitted to stay will have access to areas such as social security stopped

Editha

No, it doesn't say that.

The rights of expats, either UK in the EU or EU in the UK is a priority for negotiators on both sides. Their rights post Brexit will be set by the agreement between the EU and the UK, not by the UK alone, unless no agreement is reached at all. The article is saying that the EU negotiators will insist on post Article 50 migrants being treated in the same way as pre Article 50 migrants.

verystormy

Yes and I quote "while the UK remains part of the EU"