chance to be

By that I mean, say my child wants to go to University - far enough to re-invent themselves but could still visit weekends etc if they wanted. They could do that in the UK. In Perth, one major University. Also less choice/diversity so less chance to reinvet yourself and to me thats a big part of growing up. As with access to Europe.
I just think the variety is more opportune, if they are the sort of kids who will want to embrace that.
For us as parents we might not want that but I do think its an important part of growing up/finding yourself. Australia is beautiful but the (especially americanised) way many suburbs in Perth are much the same does not seem challenging when late teens/early twenties.
just as i look at my life sometimes and think "is that it?", i wouldnt want to be doing it in my teens. And its no use sayig well, then they could travel to Europe etc cos thats not always financially possible or they might want to be nearer to their home. Say they are on a low wage, it would be hard to see what tey havent all their lives IMO.
Not knocking the country - just think it suits different people at different ages and vise vera the UK.

chance to be

(sorry was timed out so continue here
Not knocking the country - just think it suits different people at different ages and vise vera the UK.
I think Western teenagers do pretty much the same the world over. Mine swam,sport, cinema etc in both countries. I cant really think what they could've done in Oz that they cant do in the UK, although the actual quality of many activities is much better and better organised and not wether-spoilt in Oz. If you put a teenager in Disneyland for a week, they would be bored. Teenagers are "bored" as part of growing up - and once they are through that phase and want to do something more productive, Europe has lots of opportunity and allows for greater individuality and creativity IMO.
Also, the grandparents vsited at the weekend. £10 from grandad whispering "dont tell your nana" makes them feel so special. Nana having the patitence to do things with them I dont as a parent - Priceless. They have more people (family) to do things with here so have more to do in that sense. You might be different, as financially you may be able to do it on your own, or have family there that help out. What is it that your children do in Oz they couldnt in UK?
I think Oz is fantastic for toddlers, dull for teenagers/early 20s, great for starting a family, not so good when developing a career, then better again when you retire (unless you need NHS a lot) - but I cant afford to keep moving so have to settle for one thing.
Neithers better or worse so long as you can be happy and not homesick/miss people important to you. And, for me, the people won hands down this time.

TraceyW

Here, here Chrissy I totally agree with you.

I think this place is great for young kids, but a bit mind numbing for the older ones unless they are really into sports. Around Perth suburbs, the teenagers do exactly the same as they would do if they were in the UK; they hang around parks and shops looking menacing, and quite often get up to mischief.

There are pro's and con's with both countries, if only we could mesh them together, we would come up with perfection!

birdynumnum

Good post.
Agree with Oz being better for certain parts of peoples life too ie/ as toddlers or retirees

Kath & Graham

Agree totally!!! I have a teenager and shes get fed up as other than going to Perth for the day shes bored. Her and her friends arnt into beach (anyway weather crap).. bit too young for Northbridge and too old for movies etc (but thats they end up doing).

Great for young kids here but I agree with Tracey and Chrissy theres nothing here more than we used to do in UK (sorry but thats my opinion

Kath

Exile

I don't understand your reaction. I think the automatic assumption that there are more opportunities for kids in Australia is a bit dangerous.

Sure, there may be more opportunities to do things involving beaches and sunshine, bush-walking, etc, but there is more to life.

rabsody

Ain't that the truth!!

birdynumnum

Yes it is

nick72

Chrissy thanks for your post much more informative to your personal situation.

I agree with your comments as they are personal to you, I just didnt agree with the sweeping statement .

My teenage Kids have more opportunity in the UK than they do in Perth Australia would have summed it up !! Good Luck with your move back.

Exile ? Automatic assumption ?

This is not an automatic assumption this is my opinion of living in the UK for 35 years and seen its demise (my opinion only) over the last 10 years against what I have seen since living in Australia. My kids have far more opportunity to do things here mainly as mentioned before because of the climate, but also because I feel my children are safer here.

This is a forum of opinions no one is right or wrong because its all about your own experience. Just felt that the original statement of "I do think children have a lot more opportunity to do more things in the UK" was far too sweeping.

However this was linked to Chrissys own personal experience so should now be looked on in this way and be based on her own experience not on the country as a whole.

Anyway enough rabbiting - good luck everyone in whatever you think is right !


Nick

Exile

Hi Nick,

I just assumed from your "what on earth are you talking about" response that you see it as a given, as unquestionable, that there are more opportunities for kids in Australia.

I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that the great climate can make it easier and more enjoyable to do outdoor things. But I think there is a bigger picture. The problems for many of us on this part of the site start when we extend the concept of "opportunities to do things" beyond the likes of surfing and whale watching (which I think are great, by the way) to include:

Spending time with extended family not in Australia, and having them as a major part of your life
Access to rich and varied European culture
Chance to grow up appreciating the history of your place of origin (even if you don't realize it until you move away 30 years later)
Greater access to pursuits other than sports and outdoor activities
Exposure to dynamic and inventive pop culture, TV, humour, art and literature
Access to varied, high-quality education and employment opportunities

...the list goes on

I quite like life in Australia, as it appeals to my shallow side. I just find it all a bit one-dimensional.

I used to think it was safer here in Perth, but experience (and crime stats) now tell me otherwise, despite the glossy appearance. I used to think it was great for kids, but if I'm honest I was seduced by a life of palm trees and swimming pools, sunshine and beaches, cheap property and small mortgages, and was trying to justify the move by saying "it's a better life for the kids".

Just my opinion, based on my experience and observations and hours of pondering...

nick72

Your opinion counts for everything thats what this forum is about....

Too add to your list I quite liked my time in the UK as it appeals to my multicutural, non conforming and lack of opportunity side.

Spending time away from extended family in Australia, and living my own life. Not having to rely on others, spending my time with MY family.
Access to rich and varied Asian culture. I have travelled around Europe and if my kids want to do it when they are older they will be able to.
Chance to grow up appreciating the history of your place of origin (can agree with this one the history is all thats left for me in the UK.)
Greater access to pursuits other than sports and outdoor activities there are so many places to go and visit here its unreal.
Exposure to dynamic and inventive pop culture, TV, humour, art and literature (I moved for an outdoor life and there is always the internet)
Access to varied, high-quality education and employment opportunities
(You sure you are talking about the UK here ?, my kids are better schooled here than in the UK and we have two colleges and two major Universities on our doorstep. As for employment, both my wife and I have found jobs here and neither of us are in a trade. If you want to work its here for you.)

I trust that your move to Perth, wasn't with rose tinted spectacles and like you said once the palm trees and beaches have gone you didn't see anything else for you ?

When we made the move we knew it would be hard but then thats why you put all the effort in to get here in the first place isn't it ?? I suppose if you think shallow you become shallow in your way of thinking.

There is certainly more to Australia than beaches, swimming pools and the sun but I suppose if you don't look for it you won't find it.

Not looking for an argument just interested in your opinion.

All the best.


Nick

LouiseD

[QUOTE=chance to be;5121042I think Oz is fantastic for toddlers, dull for teenagers/early 20s, great for starting a family, not so good when developing a career, then better again when you retire (unless you need NHS a lot) - but I cant afford to keep moving so have to settle for one thing.
Neithers better or worse so long as you can be happy and not homesick/miss people important to you. And, for me, the people won hands down this time.[/QUOTE]

Great post Chrissy. I totally agree with all you have said. Australia is great for young families but not so good for teenagers. My daughters both love going to concerts and festivals - they found it so difficult to do this in Oz as gigs were often a flight away which obviously bumped the costs up massively. Nights out too became really expensive as it always involved a trip into the city.

Good points about our young people having fantastic opportunities to visit Europe - after all it's so cheap they can travel so much on a low budget. In Oz, even we couldn't afford to travel much around the country, let alone the islands and other neighbouring places and we are in our 40s, both working full time, so what chance have youngsters got unless they are born into wealthy families.

chance to be

Hi Nick

I dont think its shallow thinking that leads to this thinking - rather too much thinking LOL!

I agree with a lot of what you say. Australia is beautiful and there are many things I miss about it. But there is a dichotomy where one will alsways beat the other. Australia will always have the weather. UK will always have the people (family/friends). One will compensate for the other depending on where you live. I dont have good weather, but my mum visits. You may not have extended family but the good weather makes you feel you can do more as a family unit. We make our choices.

WoodinOz sounds like shes chosen the people for now, as I did. Its not slating the country.

When you said about the kids being safer. For me, and I expect most on the forum, this is a major thing. The UK (maybe because I know it better) has lots of pockets of dreadful areas that always hit the headlines and are no-go places. If I lived there, Id be on the next plane out to Oz tomorrow. But I dont. I (and my kids) are as safe here as they were in Oz. I didnt notice the rough partsof Oz to be as rough as the rough parts of the Uk - but then again I didnt work/visit there so how would I know? Its just my perception.Others will tell you Oz is just as rough in parts.

What Im trying to say is if you live in an Ok neighbourhood anywhere, your kids will be able to do the same activities in both countries. Its the type of kids that they hang around with that would bother me rather than the activity because , like i said before, kids will always be bored of activities grown ups invent for them, they will get to an age where they dont want to be seen dead with you, so the type of kids they hang round with becomes more important. If the kids are ok where I live now, it'll be great for them to go to clubs, football matches, gigs, different cities, Europe, theme parks etc etc with friends, and IMO more than could do as teenagers in Oz. If however, I lived somewhere that got so rough they couldnt go out without carrying a knife, Id think differently. But anyone who moves back to that sort of area, which is notorious for violence is an idiot, and I cant see anyone here doing that.

I worked in schools/TaFEs in Oz - kids are the same the world over - totally bored. Thats why so many young Ozzies are in Camden - they want some life. We dont see it that way because we did all those things as children so forget how important that stage is. But our kids wont.

Anyway, Im glad you and yours are happy, and like others have said, Oz as far away as Europe would be ideal.

Chrissy

PS: I also noticed you are living in Melbourne. A lot of people responding to your comments went to Perth which I understands like a different country and if they are saying they are fed up there, believe me thats what they feel

nick72

Fantastic post Chrissy !!

Liked the bit about both countries - cut me in half you get the St Georges cross, I just dont want to live there at the moment !

Really enjoyed reading what you wrote and can agree with you on most of it

I am on the East coast on the Gold Coast.

We did look at Perth orginally and then changed our minds as we thought it would be too isolated eventually.

Looks like we have been proved right !!

Good luck with your move back !

Nick

ShozInOz

I think that is fairly accurate perception for many people. Here's my take on your stages.

TODDLERS: Being in the toddler stage (as parents) with this weather (i.e. months of bad weather, excluding April) is no fun at all. I know that day to day life back in Sydney was and would be very significantly more enjoyable. Toddlers can drive you nuts, and the ability to get them outdoors is simply a sanity issue.

TEENS: When it comes to teenage years, I agree that the UK has loads to offer. There is far more to see, do and explore in Sydney than most of the UKs towns. Sure you can get around, though train travel is not exactly cheap, and I did not get out of my region as a teenager (no train station in my town for a start). It has lots to offer, and lots to worry about. From a parent's point of view, I'd take Australia for teens because I perceive it to be a healthier society overall. The risk taking behaviours, and associated causes, of UK teenagers is depressing. The recent Unicef report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp..._nn_unicef.pdf and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6359363.stm) places the UK at the bottom of a list of 21 developed nations for child well-being as a whole, and bottom of the list of countries also for the specific issues that matter most to us (i.e. that can be least in our control), such as relationships, behaviours and risks, and subjective wellbeing. I was suprised that more of a fuss was not made of this. So for teenagers, well, if they are very fortunate then the UK is a great place to be inspired and to grow. Shame about the rest.

STARTING A FAMILY: We had such a good start in Sydney in terms of the hospital. The contrast with most people we know who had a baby recently in the UK could not be more stark - though that may just be the people we know. The public attitude in the UK to breastfeeding in public is a national disgrace, and shows how far there is still to go. State support otherwise is good in both countries I think. But personally, I am not excited at the thought of bringing up a child here. For some, the family support during toddlerhood is crucial. Sadly, we live hours away from any family, and they live in 5 regions of the UK, so we see most of them only occasionally for a few hours at a time - they are certainly no 'support' as such. Though our daughter does love and remember them. What we also find now is that we are so skint, depite earning much more. For us this is partly due to so many taxes and overheads, and partly because we tend to have to pay now to get out and about due to the weather.

DEVELOPING A CAREER: I agree here. Many more opportunities for professionals in th UK. I would not have had the career to date that I have had I have started in Australia. For some though that may mean living in London though to have more opportunities than Sydney/Melbourne. The closeness to Europe can be a major advantage also.

RETIRING: I agree again here. I would hate to be an average pensioner in the UK.

What is frustrating for me that the the UK could be such a good place to live, and far better than Australia. It has an incredible geography and there is so much more going on (in the cities). You are at the centre of everything and close to so many places. Unfortunately, the social decline, in my eyes, is severe. And as for the weather...well, it's sunny today at least.

So assuming we return to Australia in 2008 for the 'starting a family' and 'toddler' stages, we may be back when our children are developing their careers!