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...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Old Mar 21st 2018, 5:08 pm
  #31  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Originally Posted by UKMS View Post
With respect you live in a fantasy world if you think those methods are deployed to catch someone who may or may not owe tax who posts on here. Read the article and the context of the measures that HMRC can use is in relation to serious and organized crime ... not seeking someone on an expat forum. Remember that the role of HMRC extends well beyond collecting income tax !
This is more than a little naive.

Of course HMRC put the bulk of their self assessment focus on high net worth individuals and active criminals etc but they also issue several hundred thousand income tax assessment enquiries to regular folk each year. And we know they can and do obtain internet or mobile phone/data records as a matter of course. You can even read the (heavily censored) HMRC internal manual if you really want e.g. https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...dance/siog7150 which says for example: "you may want to obtain evidence about mobile phone use in order to establish the taxpayer’s residence status".

It must be so easy. You just spend a couple of hours each month googling for postings on forums like this from people admitting naughtiness and asking for tax help, obtain the IP logs, identify the physical address, and then start an enquiry using the information obtained with a near 100% certainty of recovering additional tax and rinse and repeat. And this is just going be more and more prevalent in future with more and easier sources of personally identifiable evidence becoming available, more powerful and automated IT systems, overly broad powers such as those granted by the Investigatory Powers Bill (which requires your ISP to log your browsing history for a year and provide details to HMRC on request with no warrant needed) and the existing HMRC connect system that links together different sources of evidence etc. etc.

In fact I'm probably making myself a target with these kind of postings

Last edited by FriendlyExpat; Mar 21st 2018 at 5:23 pm.
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Old Mar 21st 2018, 7:13 pm
  #32  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

The more government agencies try to use tech to watch us the people, the more we the people will avoid the issue. I worked in fairly secure IT for years. I dont use google for searches, i dont use unmasked ip addresses and i certainly dont place my name or contact details out there. My uk isp knows i used the internet - nothing else. My search engine and vpn provider are bullet proof.

I dont do this to lie to government, i use it to be a private citizen and thwart the likes of facebook, cambridge bloody analytica and google, but it makes it damn hard to prove much.
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Old Mar 22nd 2018, 6:32 am
  #33  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Originally Posted by uk_grenada View Post
The more government agencies try to use tech to watch us the people, the more we the people will avoid the issue. I worked in fairly secure IT for years. I dont use google for searches, i dont use unmasked ip addresses and i certainly dont place my name or contact details out there. My uk isp knows i used the internet - nothing else. My search engine and vpn provider are bullet proof.

I dont do this to lie to government, i use it to be a private citizen and thwart the likes of facebook, cambridge bloody analytica and google, but it makes it damn hard to prove much.
Do you make your own tin foil hats or buy them from Bulgaria?
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Old Mar 22nd 2018, 10:56 am
  #34  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Originally Posted by Millhouse View Post
Do you make your own tin foil hats or buy them from Bulgaria?
I get them from putin enterprises, where you send your social history and psychological assessment reviews. The google search engine in iceland doesnt get a look in for my data unfortunately, but im sure you make up for it. NB the movie enemy of the state is absolute garbage, government doesnt have the powers it shows unless its a really concerted effort including suppliers to watch soneone.

If you want to be paranoid read about stingray tech - i was at a trade show where it was being shown off, interesting.

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...s-to-track-you
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Old Mar 22nd 2018, 11:06 am
  #35  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Originally Posted by uk_grenada View Post
My search engine and vpn provider are bullet proof.
I don't know for sure but I believe most VPN providers are accessible to government types in one way or another.
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Old Mar 22nd 2018, 11:35 am
  #36  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Originally Posted by FriendlyExpat View Post
I don't know for sure but I believe most VPN providers are accessible to government types in one way or another.
No definitely not, as has been proven on multiple occasions when governments have confiscated servers or served write.

What happens is - all hardware and service providers in IT generally try to provide customers with bullet proof security. Eg apple devices are hard encrypted, apple themselves cant break into a locked iphone, so they have a perfect legal defense if challenged [there is a security co that says it can partially crack one but only partially and i bet apple fix that.

VPN providers sell security, its their raison d’etre. Their virtual servers are dotted round the planet in anonymous farms in data centres, managed centrally. Legally the companies are registered in places like panama out of us and eu reach so they cant be forced to give out passwords. The servers themselves could be seized [as has happened] so are encrypted at rest and in flight, and often operate with no known password so actually nobody knows how to unlock a server so you cant just look at the code. They have no logs deliberately so there is no history to see even if you did decrypt the server. The encryption used in the servers and in their von tunnels is selectable by users [in the best setups] and choosing the better options means your traffic is practically uncrackable, dont believe any hype about government whizzes being able, the most powerful it force on the planet is this years post grad it students. They run competitions to try to crack encryption, we all know whats hack-able. EG SSL 5 - what secure websites use - is hackable but it takes a lot of computing power and time to do[a 20 million dollar supercomputer and an hour, or for students an array of [20ish] of the latest playstations for about the same time.
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Old Mar 22nd 2018, 11:42 am
  #37  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

About the smartest thing tried was for the FBI to try to clone a vpn server and takeover its traffic. Unfortunately they didnt know the servers are a private net themsekves - you cant clone one without the rest of the net rejecting it.

Look at it like this. A bank cash machine is a pc and a cash handling device in a safe attached to a vpn network. Ever hear of one being hacked? Thats a real payout if you can. Closest is soneone managed to find out how to put one into diagnostic mode so it paid out. It was a physical design flaw, the network and applications werent compromised.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technol...a-cash-machine
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Old Mar 23rd 2018, 10:40 am
  #38  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Originally Posted by FriendlyExpat View Post
This is more than a little naive.

Of course HMRC put the bulk of their self assessment focus on high net worth individuals and active criminals etc but they also issue several hundred thousand income tax assessment enquiries to regular folk each year. And we know they can and do obtain internet or mobile phone/data records as a matter of course. You can even read the (heavily censored) HMRC internal manual if you really want e.g. https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-man...dance/siog7150 which says for example: "you may want to obtain evidence about mobile phone use in order to establish the taxpayer’s residence status".

It must be so easy. You just spend a couple of hours each month googling for postings on forums like this from people admitting naughtiness and asking for tax help, obtain the IP logs, identify the physical address, and then start an enquiry using the information obtained with a near 100% certainty of recovering additional tax and rinse and repeat. And this is just going be more and more prevalent in future with more and easier sources of personally identifiable evidence becoming available, more powerful and automated IT systems, overly broad powers such as those granted by the Investigatory Powers Bill (which requires your ISP to log your browsing history for a year and provide details to HMRC on request with no warrant needed) and the existing HMRC connect system that links together different sources of evidence etc. etc.

In fact I'm probably making myself a target with these kind of postings
Certainly no naivety on my part .... just reality and excellent first hand professional knowledge of how investigations work both in the UK and globally.

Your google research is not incorrect per se but it’s all about context and a big part of it is jurisdiction. You quote the Investigatory Powers Bill which is fine, but please tell me what powers that gives HMRC dealing with ISP’s, mobile companies and other telcos in the Middle East when investigating a low level self assessment issue ? What use are UK ISP records when I don’t live in the UK ? ... Likewise the manual you have dug out of google about mobile phone use and residential status, what powers do you suggest they use to get phone records from etisalat or du for a low level matter ? Drug smuggler maybe, self assessment very unlikely at best.

How do HMRC obtain my browsing history from etisalat or server logs from a forum if it’s all hosted out of their jurisdiction? Again drug smuggler probably, self assessment draw your own conclusions!

I could go on but I’m sure you get the point.
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Old Mar 23rd 2018, 11:08 am
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Even in the uk, there is no evidence of where you browsed if done correctly. The british courts and mps are like canute, passing laws like so much gas that are technically broken before passing. Yes isp’s can provide logs, mine shows i opened a pipe with a vpn provider then had a 4 week encrypted conversation, that is all. The vpn provider even in the uk has no logs. If i am ever raided i can be forced provide a password to decrypt my hard disk or get 6 months in jail, but look up plausable deniability to see how broken that is. Remember when the courts required isp’s to remove access to file sharing sites? Lasted about 4 hours?
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Old Mar 23rd 2018, 11:31 am
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Originally Posted by uk_grenada View Post
Even in the uk, there is no evidence of where you browsed if done correctly. The british courts and mps are like canute, passing laws like so much gas that are technically broken before passing. Yes isp’s can provide logs, mine shows i opened a pipe with a vpn provider then had a 4 week encrypted conversation, that is all. The vpn provider even in the uk has no logs. If i am ever raided i can be forced provide a password to decrypt my hard disk or get 6 months in jail, but look up plausable deniability to see how broken that is. Remember when the courts required isp’s to remove access to file sharing sites? Lasted about 4 hours?
Agreed !

Even when a user takes absolutely no steps to remain private it’s never straightforward to pin a particular human to a keyboard or a mobile ..... in theory and on TV and films (and google searches) of course it can be done very quickly ..... in reality not so easy .... particularly for the circumstances discussed here.
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 11:15 am
  #41  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

So after all this - does anyone know a good accountant in London for expats other than the big ones - who are very expensive?
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Old Mar 24th 2018, 11:38 am
  #42  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Originally Posted by Sabi Star View Post
So after all this - does anyone know a good accountant in London for expats other than the big ones - who are very expensive?
Not simply an accountant per se, but i can possibly give you a workable strategy.

If you have 500k [250k if you are clearly growing a portfolio] you can easily get one of the blue chip investment houses to manage your affairs.

They will actively manage the investments onshore or offshore for maximal effect, whatever your chosen strategy is, provide legal advice around things like wills and inheritance, and HMRC return info to you for about 1% a year. Given my experience is they usually grow about 8-10% a year, im satisfied with the cost.
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Old Mar 25th 2018, 9:29 am
  #43  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

Originally Posted by UKMS View Post
excellent first hand professional knowledge of how investigations work both in the UK and globally.
Sounds vaguely irrelevant, no? FWIW ... so do I
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Old Mar 31st 2018, 9:05 am
  #44  
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Default Re: ...when/how you stop being UK TAX RESIDENCE?

In answer to the OP's question it may be when you learn the difference between "residence" and "resident"
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