Maria_747

Sorry for the long essay folks.

My father had the same dilemma in the 1980s, but for some reason his gut said instinct he went
for Qatar. My parents had a 18 happy years there. I did my A levels there and I worked as microbiologist for 4 years out there. I have fond memories of Qatar and believe it or not some of my old school friends went back after their education to work there at the universities and in IT. I loved the trips to the seaside all the way to Umm Bab, tip of Qatar, Al Khor Gardens (sort like Kew and Regents park) and the sunset and sunrise is absolutely amazing. You’ll enjoy walking along the Corniche, its so relaxing.
We used to drive to Saudi Arabia to see our relatives and friends. It was nice in a different way, different scenery and attitudes but we couldn’t wait to get back to Qatar even though my Dad was a fluent Arabic speaker. My cousin lived in Saudi for 7 years, she had a fantastic job as Medical Consultant in the teaching hospital, even though she spoke the lingo, she felt very restrictive as she was used to driving in the UK and Europe and being very independent woman. She hated the Muttawa, she ended up getting divorced from her husband as he wanted to stay there, not to mention he stole all her savings by forging his signature on her bank account and tried to get her arrested, the police were useless at helping her. However, my friend who was brought up in Scotland, lived in Canada and Qatar who has been living in Dahran for the last 15 years (husband’s job) loves it as she likes the social life within the compound but she also has 2 holidays in a year to get away refresh herself.
The British school in Doha I went to was run by a Scottish Presbyterian guy, disciplined guy who did not take any nonsense from us teenagers but nice and approachable to students. All the teachers were either British or British trained. In my day we studied in porto cabins and the main building was an old sheikhs villa. The education was top notch, but we did lack facilities in sports and music. Also there was not much of choice of subjects to choose for A levels at that time. I really enjoyed the educational experience, although it was a British expat school I met kids from so many different nationalities and it was sometimes abit like the UN.
From what I heard from my friends in Qatar who live there that it has changed a lot since I left. It’s even more liberal but has not quite reached liberalism of Dubai yet. There is a big British expat community there, there are a lot of Social clubs out there, eating out is quite cheap a lot more shopping centres, therefore a lot more choice. When I was in Doha, there were only 2 main shopping centres. The driving is a little bit erratic but you will get used to it a plus is that women can drive there. I knew of a Qatari girl who worked with me and drove and it was not that common in the 1990s.
My personal choice would be to you and your family especially, you all perhaps be mentally happier in Qatar, its more liberal, the expat are really helpful network there your wife will also be able to manage during the day whilst you are at work. You are not far from Dubai, we used to drive there for our Eid holidays and meet some family members. A big plus or maybe not, The World cup is coming in 2022 so Qatar will be doing a massive overdrive for people to come and spend time there, on the downside, prepare to see a lot of building sites and road works. It was going on during my time
In Saudi Arabia if you live in a compound you will ok and you’ll have loads of expats there as well, but then when you go outside the compound it’s a different mentality and lifestyle and there comes a point that you sort of get fed with it after a few years.

Maria_747

Sorry, one thing if you miss your wines, spirits and beers etc. Its easier to drink alcohol in Qatar, as well as your own home, there are some hotels that sell alcohol now. In my day all British, US and European expats had liquor permits and were allowed to buy a certain amount a month. Obviously you cannot drink on the street or local cafe or give alcohol to Qataris but its less restrictive than Saudi. However, can't remember if they sell in the compound shops these days. Anyone know ?

co durham boy

You don't have to worry about giving booze to the Qataris , they're really good at getting it themselves.....!

Maria_747

When I used to live there mid 1980s-to mid 1990s, if one was caught selling booze to the locals, they were in trouble. Funny stories used to be when an expat house used to get burgled, you could tell it was a local because only the booze used to get stolen not the hi-fi or the video.

It must have changed alot. Is the D ring road and C ring road still there ? I still remember the Doha Sheraton shaped liked a pyramid.

I may go for a nostalgic visit but my friends say I will not be able to recognise Doha, its changed so much.

Alexa

Indeed Doha has changed. A lot. Many of the things you are talking about are gone...now it is an extremely competitive and often "keeping up with the Jonese's " kind of life. There is jealousy, ill will, spite you name it ,it's there. And the driving "a little bit erratic" oh dear.....it is a daily suicide mission.

Come and visit...or maybe better not and keep your happy memories.


I am not saying Qatar is horrible, but there certainly are better places to spend time ...and for me Saudi is one of them. Maybe because one is not as exposed to it all if one chooses so.

Alexa

Maria 747, if you don't mind, how did you visit Saudi? They don't have Visit Visas as far as I know. You said you visited relatives there, were they Expats there? Did they live on one of the "big 5" as in large Western compounds? I am asking this because it makes a huge difference if one does live on those compounds and has a fab social life and access to entertainment.
If one lives on a small non Western compound or a villa "outside", well, then I agree, life is pretty dire in Saudi.

Maria_747

HI Alexa,

I am curious really to see what Qatar is like really in 2011.

It was keeping up with the Jones and Abduls as well in those day it was not as awful as what you are describing. My friends also echo your sentiments, its not the same, they say they have a handful of real friends there, the current crowd aren't real friends as they were in my day. Everyone has become so materialistic. Its kind a sad in a way.

I still wonder how I managed to pass my driving test. It was during the first Gulf War and Qatar was the main base for the air defence campaign. My driving school was opposite the airport which had been closed for a couple of months as it was used as the main air base. Instead of concentrating on the road, I would be watching the F-16 Fighter jets coming back from their sorties in Iraq to the annoyanc eof my driving instructer. Also having to do ae point turn on a hill was weird.
I used to be petrified driving and then Dad used to say, ' drive and think everyone else is blind and you are the only who can see' The Qataris used to stop in the middle of the road and chat regardless if the traffic light was green.

I see where you are coming from about Qatar, my cousins who lived in Dubai found Qatar a little dull and grey in some ways as Dubai was far advance and exciting and alot more social activities to do.

Maria_747

As far I can remember, my father used to get a visa and say were going to Mecca and Medina for religious grounds, although we are very liberal in our religion. Also we would have to say who we are visiting relatives as well. Also he had a Qatari friend who had friend in the Saudi Embassy to get our visas sorted plus it did help as were living in Qatar. I noticed it was 'not what you know but who you know' to try and get things done in Qatar.

Some relatives were on US and European contracts lived in the compounds, but others lived in villas in the non western localities as they wanted to get a taste of what it was like to live amongst the locals also they were worked for the Saudi Ministry of Health and Defence so they were offered very plush housing accomodation, I hope you get my drift. Some of the clan liked it, others didn't and couldn't adjust.
It all boils what your situation is financial, to be near family, change of scenery. As we were from an Asian/Middle Eastern background, we were brought up in a secular environment in the West and knew what to expect when living in these countries. For example, I never wore a head scarve in Qatar, I was mostly in western dress but in Saudi I was obliged to wear it when sitting in the car or in the shops in case the Muttawa might say something.

Alexa

Well Maria, you have to remember that there are A LOT more people in Qatar now than there were when you lived here. So the roads have total overload. It is not so much the Qataris, we know what to expect...if you are in a rush tailgate them, if you are not, get out of their way. And NEVER aggravate them, that can be painful and costly. Not great, but hey, nothing to do about it. No, it is the other xpats that are used to driving in their country , and boy, they are DANGEROUS as hell. No lane discipline at all, they just swing from lane to lane like a monkey in the jungle...no care no worries...and they like to do this starting in the left lane driving 40 km/h in a 100 zone....yah, and then the roundabouts...be in the inner lane if you want to turn..yup, just cut through all the other lanes and cause chaos!
Anyway, long story, lol
What I find really sad is the behaviour of many Western expats...nasty and mean, sadly, most of the time. In all those years here I never found out why....I have lived in many countries, but have never experienced that so massively anywhere else.
I also have this feeling that due to what is happening here to some expats,like the laboureres kind of influences the ambience...don't really know how to say it, it's kind of bad vibes all around.
Sure, that happens in Saudi too, but as a Westerner one is pretty isolated from it there. I am not saying that is good, just stating a fact.
Wallah, long post, time to sleep for me, good night!

Alexa

ahhh, ok, yes, now I understand.
See, there is another component to all this. I had a lot of Arab/Muslim friends in Saudi. Every single one hated Saudi with a passion. For various reasons that we do not need to go into now. See, we as Westerners are not as involved in it all....for us it is a bit weird, strange , sometimes annoying, at times interesting. But we do not really care, we have no personal stake in it.
So we can enjoy what life offers us there without thinking about the rest. This is my personal opinion of course.

nottmbantam

Read through with interest the exchanges between Alexa and Maria. As mentioned previously, I've been in Saudi for nearly three years. I have enjoyed it, don't get me wrong, and if any of my friends are offered an opportunity, I would still definitely recommend it - with of course the given caveats.

However, after three years, I find it starting to wear me down. Yes, we do live on a Western Compound, so that isn't a problem, it's just the day to day frustrations when one of off the compound and in the City.

We visited Bahrain recently and had a really nice weekend. We don't drink, so didn't go there to get lashed, but drove there from Riyadh, drove around the island, went for a walk around a souk, then ended up in a large Mall, had a meal and went to the cinema. Now, this might seem very boring and not a worthy of being described as a nice weekend, but the very basic opportunity ti sit in a restaurant, not in booth shutoff from everyone else, and then being able to go to the cinema were so exciting, it made it worth the visit just doing those two things.

Similar experience was in Qatar, we went for the weekend, and were just able to relax and enjoy the weekend.

So, after living in Saudi, I personally jump at the chance of living in another Gulf country, with more freedoms than Saudi.

Now - the real issue underneath it all in terms of where one can enjoy quality of life etc, for me, is nationality. Lets not mince words, the Saudi's are as racist as they come, and I suspect most Gulf arabs are the same, and see themselves certainly as superior to the large numbers of eastern expats ( Indian, Pakistani etc ) who work out here. They way they are treated is shameful. Although I am British, I am Asian ( parents from The Punjab ), and the variation of treatment I get is just amazing. I can pass for Saudi / Arab then when people know the history, their attitudes just switch instantly.

So, those workers from the east who have managed to secure better positions, will never be paid the same as western expats, and there I think lies a real resentment that becomes more prevalent in Qatar, which has greater opportunities and therefore the competitiveness is far more exposed.

Sorry if this sounds a bit of a ramble.

In summary - Saudi is fine. But restrictive. Very much.

Qatar / Bahrain ( I've never been to UAE so can't compare ) is freer, better quality of life, but perhaps more competitive and therefore breeds more resentment which becomes more exposed.

Just an amateur opinion.

Maria_747

HI Alexa,
From a westerner's point of view I can see where you all are coming from as well and you might find the these countries ways weird, silly and quirky. We found it hard sometimes, we couldn't fit in with the narrow minded folk and at the other end of the spectrum, we didn't fit in with the over indulgence of those who went wild and over the top.

Alexa

oh yes, the racism here, from ALL sides, is just mind boggling, you are 100% right about that. The reasons, well, there are many, and many different sides to it.
And yes, it is nice to do "every day " things, like going to the cinema and restaurants. BUT.....going to a decent restaurant here is ALWAYS very expensive and a total rip off. Going to the cinema is very annoying most of the time...as there are people who can't shut up, MUST walk around, and constantly be on their mobile. And you can't do anything about it, as they are the "Uebermensch", ya, lol.
I could continue to tell you about how excited we were coming fom Saudi to be able to partake in the local culture, as there are festivals etc over here. Well, we tried once, never again. I am not afraid of people or claustrophobic, but the mob mentality was just too much.
Then there are the bars and clubs...besides being a rip off, you . as a woman (scarce commodity over here), will be continually stared at, touched, and hit on...even if you make very clear that there is no interest,it WILL continue. I actually had to physically push guys away! And I am not saying that in a conceited, smug way, far from it. You can look like a toad ans wear a potato sack, it will still happen.
So, there gos that...what is left? House parties, going to the desert and shopping....sound familiar? Just like Saudi without the bother...

Alexa

Maria, weird and quirky is putting mildly, lol.
And yes, I from the Western side, do understand that it must be difficult for people like you. I had a friend from Africa, a Muslim lady. She came to Saudi expecting to find nice people that apply Islamic values to daily life...now, her idea was that those values include kindness, gentleness and fairness...well, poor thing , she was devastated by what she found.
Sure, there maybe are people who apply these noble values to daily life over there....maybe they are very private people and don't go out much.
And then the other end of it...I guess oppression breeds overindulgence...
Well, now I really have to say good night

Maria_747

nottmbantam,
I see where you are coming from. This is one the things I did not like living in the Gulf, the way the workers from less well developed countries were treated, not gettong paid for 6 months. I got hassled once by a Muttawa, and called him a w**ker, luckily he didn't understand me.


Alexa,
The first time I went to the Souk with my mother, we were modestly dressed, The amount of stares we got was scary, I told Mum 'I want to go home'. I didn't go to the souk for a while and it was only when I was surrounded by 5-6 members of the family did I feel comfotable. I used to see some creeps at house parties who were being rather inappropriate but I gave them such abuse they got scared and kept their distance.

In those days we had no internet and the local tv was rubbish, it used to take a good week before the letters arrived and phoning home cost a fortune. I used to miss Top of The Pops badly and I used to get my Auntie to tape the xmas special. Our fellow expats were really cool, when they used to come back undetectedwith videos of xmas programmes and Mum used to get a whole load of her Mr Kipling cakes. We couldn't get Cadbury's flake in Qatar,when we were back home during the holidays we would buy 6 months worth and stick it in the freezer. It sounds trivial now but we missed little things British when we lived there.

BTW, it was interesting seeing British folk who had been living out there since the late 1950s when the countries were not developed out there and their kids were even born there and loved it. They found it very hard adjusting back to life in the UK and ended up spending their retired lived in Mediterranean regions and Italy