Maxima

Before December 2020, when there were no vaccines, what was the hospitalization rate among Covid patients, all of whom were effectively "unvaccinated" ?

I daresay it wasnt any higher than 10%, though many people wrongly assume that catching Covid is an automatic hospital admission, whereas vast majority dont get hospitalized, with, or without vaccines

Maxima

What is the age and health condition of the 8%?
Lets keep in mind that a big % of unvaccinated people are so because they are in a bad medical shape, because of age or other conditions. So if they catch Covid there is a good chance they will be hospitalized

UKMS

care to point to some examples of where this has happened ? Or just using this to punt your own agenda

shiraz1

You seem to be claiming that the 8% of the population who refuse to get vaccinated are the elderly and unwell, which you obviously have no evidence for.

weasel decentral

I meant against COVID vaccines, which in most people's experience is one of the first vaccines that they have had to consent to as an adult. Most of us have been vaccinated prior to this as children with parent's consent, it hasn't been an individual choice.
Obviously this vaccination has been hugely politicised into the categories you speak of - trust in government, trust in manufacturers etc. and the things you mention like informed consent and individual sovereignty. The choice seems much simpler to me - will this help me personally and will others also benefit from me being vaccinated - YES or NO. If yes then take the vaccine.

Informed consent and individual sovereignty are to be honest laughable concepts in the modern world - they are illusory at best and commonly seem to take the form of raging against a shopkeeper for insisting on a mask or personal 'research' by laymen into the medical field.

The maths of the Irish situation re the 8% and 92% making up approximately half each of hospitalisation is simply, that there are 500 cases in hospital so lets say 250 vaccinated versus 250 unvaccinated. The 250 vaccinated cases are from an overall vaccinated population of 4 million, the 250 unvaccinated cases are from an overall unvaccinated population of 400,000. That's a factor of 10 on face value

Maxima

No, a portion of the 8% would be those who who are unable to get vaccinated

The rest would be those who voluntarily refuse to get vaccinated.

So far we have no idea about the split between those 2 groups

Maxima

Social media.

When the first blood clot problems with AZ were reported, anyone posting it was attacked with claims of how this was fake news spread by Anti vaxxers

Ditto for Moderna's issues. Now however it is well known which is why countries like Finland which are hardly anti vax, have banned it for younger makes

UKMS

simply stating ‘social media’ is not really giving an example …

UKMS

since when has age precluded anyone from vaccination? Or for that matter being in bad shape ….. there aren’t really that many preclusions from vaccine

Norm_uk

10% was not the number stated in the comment I was replying to originally - it was 40% to 50% then.

I'd be interested in seeing links to where that number comes from.

Norm_uk

That's a door that swings both ways.

Norm_uk

We live in an age of feelings not reason - and most of us have not been schooled in the basics of debate either.

It surprises me many cannot see how asking questions about one particular vaccine has nothing to do with all vaccines though.

But it surprises me more that many people are willing to see basic rights denied to others over one of the least deadly (if going by death rates) pandemics in history. The amount of closet Communists and Fascists who jump at the chance of vaccine apartheid is phenomenal. We used to have wars over things like this - and populations were vanished when the rhetoric against them rose to a fever pitch.

UKMS

I’ve never focused on ME ….. only the wider picture and I don’t have an anti covid vax agenda masked by smoke.

Ive made decisions based on what I feel is good for me, my family, people who might come into contact with me and other people who might be impacted should I use unnecessary health resources if I were to become sick through not vaccinating. Therefore I consider other people not only me me me.

UKMS

Youve mentioned a couple of times about people being denied basic rights …… I’m interested to know what rights are being denied and where ? …. Of course there maybe some countries clamping down but that happens in various countries for various reasons which is another topic entirely.

you also previously mentioned people being jailed


It would interesting if you could expand on both ?

Norm_uk

I have had two shots of Covid vaccine so you can decided if you think I am against Covid vaccinations - most of my concerns surrounded mRNA vaccines and the willingness of many otherwise rational people to see the powers of the State used to create a two tier citizenship in supposedly free nations (ones that my family have fought for repeatedly in the last century or two). As someone else pointed out - just asking questions gets one labelled as 'anti-vax', or asking for more informed consent or indeed challenging the many narratives being pushed out by media and some governments.

I'm glad the choice is simple to you. It isn't to some people though, and I think the rise is blood libels against them isn't really going to make the world a better place - forgetting about the rights of people not to be forced to undergo any medical procedures, informed consent, the collusion of state and big pharma etc make this a tough choice for many. Especially the many fit and healthy people who are already often fully recovered from Covid and who are being told they face fines, jail, job less and what amounts to being branded by the powers that be - much to the delight of the puritans who have done what they were told. It's going beyond healthcare to morality and societal fragmentation in some places.

You say these things are laughable then cite the logically fallacy known as the argument from authority - in otherwords, if you don't have the right qualifications you're simply too stupid to even begin to understand how to research data and draw your own conclusions.

I happen to be married to a published researcher and lecturer, and she'd be the first one to laugh at the suggestion that experts can always be trusted. People trusted Doctors in the 40s and 50s who were paid to say smoking was good for us. We are still suffering from the bad advice sponsored by the processed food industry in the 70s that told us seed oils and low fat diets are healthy. But somehow today we can blindly trust companies that have paid out record amounts in law suits due to faulty product that was also signed off and approved by various authorities.

I think equating being angry at a shopkeeper for asking you to wear a mask is a very different scenario to asking questions about certain companies and their products, the role of some authorities and the blatant calls to deny others certain rights....

Or one could just count the people who are hospitalised then see how many are vaccinated and how many are not...then again, nations have crippled and destroyed small businesses and helped create nine new pharma billionnaires last year over positive test results - not cases where people needed to see a doctor or stay in hospital. But if we count it that way we get figures that are about half and half very roughly...and when that's citided people rush to accuse those of pointing that out of having a personal agenda. If we were talking about any other virus or bacterial infection and only looked at cases with symptoms bad enough to seek medical attention we wouldn't have the same reaction from some quarters I am sure.

I am personally more interested in who has needed medical help rather than who has been tested positive or not. There are many things we don't test for as much as this which are with us all the time which can be also be deadly but we don't test unless someone has symptoms. If we did test as much for other things and ignore the difference between positive test results and cases with symptoms we'd have endless pandemics.