johnyzee

Thanks for all your responses.

Tami is right that I'm not looking for the kind of lifestyle that Frans described (it is readily available here in Europe), but thanks anyway for the alternative input and opinions. I would definitely prefer the accomodation you described, i.e. not in a compound but in a villa among the local people.

To answer your question Tami, no, I would not want to live a life where I have to look over my shoulder all the time and be worried about some real or perceived threat. Even if I could live with it I would not feel comfortable putting my family in that kind of environment.

I am still gathering information but I am becoming increasingly aware that the atmosphere in KSA now is a bit strained. Even if the chance of anything bad actually happening is abysmal, the threat, the awareness and the precautions that one would have to take seems to contrast with the kind of relaxed lifestyle that I am looking for.

Frans Wind

Hi Johny,

Sorry I went overboard on a few aspects yesterday, didn't want to cause a major shock to your system. If I can help in any way just ask okay? I know Saudi Arabia like the inside of my pocket.

Frans

Face81

bollocks to Saudi!

Come to Dubai! that way u can meet all of us wackos and we will keep u safe!

johnyzee

No problem Frans, and thanks for the offer, that's very kind of you.

As it turns out I still have some deliberations to do as for choosing my destination for when (not if) I leave for the ME.

Frans Wind

It' just an offer Johny, just let me know if you need help or advise.

Frans

Jammy_Dodgers

Johnny, you would be stark raving mad to go there. The thought of living in a villa outside of a protected compound is also barking mad. You will be playing russian roulette with 5 bullets, not just for yourself, but with your family as well.
I saw a german guy shot and killed 10 yards from my office entrance.
I side with Tami, do not go at any cost. I would sooner go bankrupt and sign on the dole than live there again.

Tami and myself have posted this because we have both lived there and have experienced it first hand. please reconsider your options.

Frans, Al Khobar might be OK, but Riyadh is a completely different ball game.
Rgds
JD

Frans Wind

And I said to avoid Riyadh where possible. Jeezz....

Jammy_Dodgers

I would recommend at all costs !

I did manage to get loads of vodka there...but nothing else

Frans Wind

Only vodka? I used to buy Johnie Walker Black Label by the box in Saudi Arabia. I never saw staying there as bad. But hey.... That's my point of view. And yes, I did use to rent a villa in the subburbs, and no, never wanted to live in a compound.

Jammy_Dodgers

Cool...each to their own
cant drink JW...only vodka im afraid....(spend far too long in Poland!)

Nzingha

I presently live in Saudi Arabia and have been here for four years. I don't live on a compound, but I'm a muslim and married to a man from jeddah (although not saudi) I do live in Khobar, which makes a huge difference.

Anywhere in the world is filled with one danger or another. You have dangers of being mugged, attacked, robbed, ect ect. Here you live w/ a threat of possible terrorist attacks. The government has, especially after the attacks here in Khobar, being doing many things to catch the people. But this is my only worry. I don't worry about being robbed, raped, mugged, attacked or anything else where I live. And those is normal things when I lived in the states. So I trade one for the other. Unless you plan on living in a cave in total seclusion risks will happen.

Am I crazy? listening to some perhaps.. but try talking to a south african who lives w/ more daily violence and prefer saudi as well. So maybe its a matter of views.

Where is the job offer in saudi? If its khobar I would suggest you consider that the security is much better here than other places. Also everyone speaks english that is a non issue. Housing is nice, the communities are nice, its family orientated. Many perks here.

I would suggest you define the area your looking into moving.. Saudi being a pretty big place. Talk to people who currently live there and those who have lived there and get a more balanced picture. people running in fear is a valid response.. but so is the choice of so many families to remain living here.

Tami2

Hi Nzingha,
I lived in Riyadh from June 2000 to June 2004 with my husband and 4 children. We lived in a compound owned by a prominent Sheikh's family and I ended up working for them as well. I have to say it was a heavenly life for the first three years, but once the bombings started, and my boss was killed, it became hell. Riyadh is a completely armed city now and no one feels safe there, either the expats or the locals. As I said previously, you can live there in the highly protected compounds, but eventually you have to go out and then you're stuck with the fear that you'll be in the wrong place at the wrong time, when a bomb goes off or some crazy person decides to do a drive by shooting or kidnapping. It happens in Riyadh all the time. We also have friends who have decided to stay in Riyadh because they won't have a job if they leave, but they're not happy about it. The entire place has completely changed. The fun atmosphere has been replaced by fear and secrecy. You keep your head down and stay out of sight as much as possible. You check under your car any time you go out to make sure no one has put a bomb under it. You try to blend in, but a blue eyed blond or red head isn't going to blend very easily. Perhaps in Al Khobar, things are more relaxed and you don't have the fear people experience in Riyadh, or perhaps you can physically blend in better. Our friends who were middle eastern or eastern didn't have as much fear as those who were obviously western or european.

Yes, I leaft almost 9 months ago, just about the time they kidnapped the American guy and beheaded him. But my friends there have told us that it's still the same. Even many of the locals have shipped their wives and children off to the countryside or out of the kingdom. As JD and I have said, for those of us who lived throught two series of bombings, kidnappings, drive-by shootings, and other horrible things that were obviously directed at the westerners in the kingdom, it was an obvious choice to leave and we won't be going back as long as this situation remains. Where the Saudis used to be very friendly when you mentioned that you were American or Canadian, they are now not happy to have you there. They blame the U.S. for many of their problems and this extends to the expats who live there.

Bottom line, if you have options, choose somewhere else to live and work, especially if you have children. There are loads of other places in the middle east to find the same work you could do in KSA.

And in response to your statement that you could be assaulted anywhere, I guess in the big cities that's true. But where we have a home in a small university town in Pennsylvania, we very rarely have any physical violence against people. There are occassionally college students arrested for underaged drinking, driving violations or other typical college campus stuff, but I've never seen or heard of any muggings or assaults. There are many places in the world where violence is not a concern.

Good Luck to everyone.
Tami

johnyzee

Thanks for the alternative voice. I agree that whereever you go in the world there will be risks and inconveniences. However, what Tami and Jammy_Dodgers describe is just too much of a change in lifestyle to be worth considering. I have heard similar accounts from other expatriates in Saudi Arabia.

I would love to go to KSA if not for these factors. As you say I am sure there are differences from one place in Saudi to another, but I would have to be sure that we will be safe before I would consider going. Could it be that your experience is in part caused by the fact that you are a woman? In public you would cover yourself and as such be less conspicuous as a Westerner, not to mention that as a woman you are likely less of an obvious target of aggression. Your husband is from the region and so is not likely to be singled out by would be terrorists.

I am myself muslim but I am also a white European and I am afraid that in the terrorists eyes that's all that matters. After all a bullet doesn't have a name on it, nor does it discriminate based on political or religious preferences.

Nzingha

>>
I would love to go to KSA if not for these factors. As you say I am sure there are differences from one place in Saudi to another, but I would have to be sure that we will be safe before I would consider going. Could it be that your experience is in part caused by the fact that you are a woman? In public you would cover yourself and as such be less conspicuous as a Westerner, not to mention that as a woman you are likely less of an obvious target of aggression. Your husband is from the region and so is not likely to be singled out by would be terrorists.>>


I think it is more to do with one area of saudi to another. The men who attacked here were from Riyadh. They have to import their madness to the Eastern province because this area is so higly influenced by expatriates as well as A******* many of whom are married to foriegn women. This area is MUCH diifferent than Riyadh and I personally would never live in Riyadh.

Women are out all the time here, covered, uncovered, obvious foriegners no problems. Locals love us because we spend rediculous amounts of money shopping But I'm an obvious westener as soon as they hear my loud american mouth. There is nothing that says 'saudi' about me.

My husband works for a us company in the oil field that alone makes him a 'target'. And no one knows he is from here until they speak to him.

>>
I am myself muslim but I am also a white European and I am afraid that in the terrorists eyes that's all that matters. After all a bullet doesn't have a name on it, nor does it discriminate based on political or religious preferences>>

There are quite a few white male muslims here. One even is part of the local mutawwa office. Its not an uncommon thing.

But again it depends on the area your looking to live in. If its somplace like Riyadh I would say skip it. But Khobar/Dammam area I would say give it a shot. I have four children, my mother lives here w/ me. I know many westerners here, muslims non muslims, and all enjoy it here. Right over the bridge is Bahrain, many perks to being here. You can even learn some arabic if you like. As I said it all depends on the area your consideriing. Any place has risk.. here its minimal compared to many western cities.

Nzingha

>>
I lived in Riyadh from June 2000 to June 2004 with my husband and 4 children.>>

Violence or no violence I wouldn't live in Riyadh. I don't like it never have and never will. Too many mutawwa for me.

>>>You try to blend in, but a blue eyed blond or red head isn't going to blend very easily. Perhaps in Al Khobar, things are more relaxed and you don't have the fear people experience in Riyadh, or perhaps you can physically blend in better. Our friends who were middle eastern or eastern didn't have as much fear as those who were obviously western or european.>>

Khobar is a much different area to begin with. Vast difference in the numbers of population (Riyadh is the capital) and vast difference in the social makeup of the residents here. It is LARGELY populated by expatriates, and much of the income of the small buisness rely on that. As I stated earlier shopping is a favorite of most expat women here. There are many a******* married to non arab women, mainly americans and british women. There are many brits here due to BAE. So blounde heads, red heads is the norm here. Everyone speaks english, everyone still likes to see americans, they are respectful, inviting and friendly. They do know how to sepearte american politiics from americans here because they deal w/ so many on a daily basis.



>>
Bottom line, if you have options, choose somewhere else to live and work, especially if you have children. There are loads of other places in the middle east to find the same work you could do in KSA.>>

But that is the bottom line for you and your experience. This is largely affected by the area in which you lived. Again if you haven't experience Khobar you really can't mesh the two together. I've been to riyadh, jeddah, and other places in the kingdom Khobar is the best.


>>And in response to your statement that you could be assaulted anywhere, I guess in the big cities that's true. But where we have a home in a small university town in Pennsylvania, we very rarely have any physical violence against people. There are occassionally college students arrested for underaged drinking, driving violations or other typical college campus stuff, but I've never seen or heard of any muggings or assaults. There are many places in the world where violence is not a concern.>>

That isn't the norm for many people, especially as expats working overseas. We tend to move to larger areas. Riyadh has a higher crime rate in general than Khobar, so does Jeddah for that matter. Excluding the terrorist issue, we don't have such crime rates. I walk down back allies all the time no worries.. I wouldn't do that in Riyadh or Jeddah. This is a smaller area influenced greatly by expatriates who have lived here a long long time.

Again I think its an issue of were your going to live. If the job is in Riyadh I would say forget it.. but if its in Khobar/Damma, or Jubail than I would give it more consideration and not write it off due to problems that are prevalent in Riyadh.