Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Hi All

I'm discussing a couple of telco sales positions out in ME with a blue chip company - one in Saudi (Riyadh) and the other in Abu Dhabi.

Coming from the UK with a wife and 2 kids, Saudi will obviously be massively restrictive and insular compared to Abu Dhabi.

Question I have is, should I expect the Saudi package to be better than the UAE package? Both positions are with same company, so is there generally any kind of "hardship" premium factored into Saudi packages compared to UAE? This company uses a % of base for calculating housing, schooling, etc.

Cheers
Mike

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Saudi packages are generally better than UAE ones. Have you been to Saudi? I have, and I wouldn't live in Saudi without at least a 50% premium on my UAE package--even then I'd be reluctant. But some people are OK with the magic kingdom.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Thanks for the reply Bahtatboy. I'll be in both countries over next couple weeks for 'look & see' trip. Any final decision will be based on 3 criteria (package, position & location). All things being equal it seems like a case of Saudi restricted lifestyle = big savings or Abu Dhabi social lifestyle = not so big savings :lol:

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

I haven't been to Saudi but I would have thought AD would be better with kids?

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Good luck:D

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

True, but the premium is a lot lower than, say, ten years ago.

Saudi is fine. I cannot understand those who say "I'd never go to Saudi in a million years" as work-wise it's one of the best places around here, and lack-of-freedom-wise it's more relaxed than it's ever been.

If you do make the move to Saudi, make absolutely sure your company has sorted out your accommodation BEFORE you arrive. Do not assume you can stay in a hotel for a few days, then find somewhere to live - you won't.

In Abu Dhabi (as I understand it), the schools are harder to get your kids into, but accommodation there is less difficult to find than in Saudi.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Cheers, if we go Saudi then will be hotel/managed aprtment for 3 months or so until residency and place on western compound found (preferably Al Hamra) - then the family would come out.

If Abu Dhabi then don't have worries about family coming out "cold"; them coming to Saudi without seeing it 1st is still an alien concept :huh:

As waiting lists for villa at Al Hamra, Arizona, Kingdom, etc. seems to be forever, I want to add a clause to contract that gives me some upside if it takes the company any longer to sort out accomodation. e.g. Payment of X increasing to Y for every month >2 it takes to get in villa.

Ideal scenario would be to secure compound 1st, but the company has some urgency on the positions that works in my favour..

Mike

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

I don't think the 50% premium is realistic for most people anymore. Working in Saudi isn't that bad to be honest, but then I work in Eastern Region and have the pleasure of living in Bahrain. Riyadh or Jeddah are out of the question for me, unless they paid me at least twice what I get now. My wife would refuse to live in Saudi, so I would have to pay for my family to live somewhere else which would seriously cut into the opportunity for saving.

Oh and there is nothing magic about it. They are far far behind UAE in terms of work ethics and so on which can make it ridiculously challenging. Not to mention the all male work environment most of us have to endure. I need at least a 4 day holiday once a month to reset my sanity.

Knowing what I do now after spending about 18 months in the Kingdom, I'm not sure I would take another job here. At least not immediately, if I went somewhere else for a few years then I might be more open to it though..

You need to visit with your wife and have a look around. And take all the "it's so wonderful here" stories you get with a pinch of salt, especially if they are coming from your prospective colleagues. Like Dean says plenty of people enjoy it, but it isn't exactly a walk in the park and you definitely need to go into it with both eyes open and ready for anything.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Everything is always urgent here, but it still usually takes at least 6 months to get someone onboard. My position was very urgent (I was told in my first phone interview that I should have started 2 months ago according to their plan) and still we spent 8 weeks negotiating small things on the contract.

It's certainly true that Arabs love to haggle about everything. :thumbsup:

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Lol I have to go Saudi every week though thankfully only for 2 days at a time and I wouldnt live or work there permanently. The country is a toilet and a bad arabic toilet at a remote gas station at that. I would love to know what makes it the best place besides the cash because I must be missing something

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

You are indeed............

Saudis - in my line of work - are far more professional (and respectful of Western skills and experience) than anyone else in this region, and that includes the otherwise charming Bahrainis.

Also - I think there's an unspoken recognition among them that you are sacrificing a great deal of personal freedoms to live and work there, and any attempt to ingrain yourself into the culture is fully appreciated.

I have several times been invited to join the families of Saudi colleagues at their homes for Friday lunch, and have always enjoyed the experience (I would of course never decline). Not many Westerners are granted that kind of honour, I suspect......

........ so maybe it's just me that's the good guy, and they respond to it?

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

to some degree you are right about that, on their own saudis are usually friendly enough and polite/respectful people but the group or national dynamic is incredibly opressive and restricted.
i bet those saudis you work with, would complain to you over dinner about how things were in their country but never to another saudi.
i discovered from working there, while everyone has a price to work in unfavourable conditions mine is now so high that no company will probably ever pay to bring me back there.
freedom > money :thumbup:

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Of course there are some good people in Saudi and indeed I know some as well, but I have also met a lot of deadbeat lazy *****ers who I would have fired if it wasn't nearly impossible to do so.

The only other place I have seen so many work-shy people is in the UK, but at least there they had the decency to go on benefits instead of pretending to be productive members of society....:p

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

But that's more-or-less true (at least in some parallel way) of virtually every nationality. Most people are ok one-to-one, but gather together a hundred or more of most nationalities and they turn unpleasant.

(Probably not true of the Japanese, but for them all you have to do is put them behind a steering wheel, or even worse dress them in a Taxi driver's uniform.)

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

well maybe in a mob scenario but I mean even in a shopping centre it feels like someone is always watching or you feel restricted. day to day life just is oppressive.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

You're not wrong there.:blink:

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Agree. Saudis are much more clued up than your average Emirati in my experience. I really enjoy going to Riyadh as I'm staying with some decent lads in a Western compound when I'm there (met through BE! - plenty of compound, Salwa and embassy dos) but I haven't moved from Abu Dhabi lock stock yet. My opinion may change!! Ask me again in 12 months.

Having interesting work helps too.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Hi Duffster,

Back to your initial question. I am today in the same situation you used to be 9 months ago.
I am interested to know your decision on job location (KSA or UAE) and also on your ability to negotiate a salary premium for a BDM position in Telecom operator (10 years experience).
I would appreciate to receive in PM an idea on your salary package.

Thanks for your help,

EW

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Can you tell me which company you work for in Bahrain and are you an Engineer?? Please send me a private message if you can?

Thank you.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

I didn't know Britishers were lazy as well. I used to believe that UK is the best place to work in the world as far as work ethics are concerned. If not UK then what is the best place?

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

By the way what job do you do (in Manama and Khobar) are you an engineer? Is there any demand of Mechatronic Engineers in the Eastern KSA or Bahrain or in Middle East anywhere?

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

You are definitely right. about (25 to 20) years ago there were more foreigners around here in KSA. But they left gradually. These days arn't that great either as they used to be earlier. And you are right they actually keep staring at you in the Malls. At several occasions I have been followed by a male (apparently he was pretending to spy on me and thought I didn't know) just for having picked a soap bar from the market where is wife, daughter or 100 years old mother was standing. The moment he saw that I had arrived to the market with my parents that's only he leaves me alone.
It is a society where male is the ruler, the son is in some cases if the family is rich and Saudi. Otherwise the family have no life of their own. A friend of mine was once visiting a general store on his own Muttawas caught him for being out without his father and as a punishment clean-shaved his Head.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Actually the people who are fine with this magic kingdom are only Muslims. They too do fell oppressed but bear the suffering for tax-free income and for that they are close to the Holy places. That is why you see less European workers in KSA; except for Dammam, Khobar, and Eastern area. This is also the reason the workk ethics are quite better in Eastern Region as compared to the Riyadh and Jeddah.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Which company is this by the way?

Anyways here are the pros and cons:

PROS:::KSA:::
1. Usually (not always) you get paid better in KSA.
2. The cost of living (Food, Clothes, Rent etc.) is comparatively lower than UAE.
3. You can save a little more comparatively.

CONS:::KSA:::
1. No great entertainment spots. Like (Cinemas, Exhibitions, Red Carpet events). Simply no place to visit. You can't buckle yourself in the car and ask your wife and kids where to? Because you know there aren't much places. You can experience the entire Riyadh in 30 days.
2. No work ethics. Although Eastern region (Dammam, Khobar, Dhahran is an exception).
3. You feel oppressed and depressed.
4. Your wife can't drive.
5. Your family can't go outside to the malls without you. Probably religious police wouldn't catch them if women are covering their heads. Rather the trouble would be to socialize. The society is a male dominant. They would understand English; only Arabic. And then other women around would be Saudis or other Arabs. They are usually aggressive towards foreign women. They wouldn't give them way, and would try to tease them.
6. Also since the kingdom has banned cutting hands off for stealing; under the pressure of Human rights commision, the crime rates have risen drastically in the last 5 years.
7. Corruption has also risen in the last 5 years.
8. Unlike other countries in the world. Kingdom has been continuously falling in the development graphs.
9. No further learning. Like if you are planning to do a few certified courses to improve your CV, well the news is there are hardly any such institutes in KSA. If there are some they are all full of ARABS, so no ethics and no learning. There are only 2 universities for advanced learning but non-saudis aren't allowed here.
10. Uneducated environment.
11. Schools aren't that good although a couple of British schools exist where the majority students are Britishers.
12. Say a good goodbye to your freedom.


UAE:::PROS:::
1. Your kids can enjoy the city without you.
2. Your wife can drive.
3. Lots of places to visit. Movies, Exhibitions
4. Work ethics are quite better, because less locals are employed in private companies.
5. Lesser crime rate.
6. Lesser corruption.
7. English is widely spoken.
8. A variety of cultures.
9. Comparatively more learning institutes.
10. Educated societies.
11. Freedom.

UAE:::CONS:::
1. Cost of living is a bit higher.
2. You can't save as much as in KSA.
3. You ........ Well I don't have any more.


IMPORTANT :: Note that I am not a Britisher so mine and your preferences could differ. Also mine and your experiences could differ a lot in both countries. Mostly Americans and Europeans are placed in an ethically better environment in both KSA and UAE.
Make sure your company is private. And that you aren't sponsored under any person, you must be sponsored by an organization or comany; but not a PERSON.
And the last but not the least both are ARAB countries. If you are aware of Arabs then better avoid them. So WHY http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/sr...cons/icon5.gif are you coming to Middle-East anyways. Britain is way better. If you have to pay taxes then you are also paid the pension; one way or another it is the same. My advice stay there otherwise your kids wouldn't feel UK their home.

Good Luck.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

By the way which freedom is it that you hate to give up the most. I mean you said Freedom > Money. Which freedom is it specifically?

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Henry, Britain isn't "way better" than anywhere at the moment..........

And you don't like Saudi "work ethics"? I wish every nation in this region had the professionalism and integrity of the Saudis......

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

You could be very right but the thing is that you are probably located in a literate community. If I am not wrong you live in Dammam or Khobar or in the Eastern region. This is very true that an educated local is sometimes even better than any other person in the entire world. But they are 1 in a 10000.
You probably drive to or are driven to work and then you return to the compound. If that's the case then you haven't seen the real thing.
This debate could go just as long as debate on the existence of Aliens.
But the fact is that your own luck matters as well. Varies from person to person. Some people have had great experiences others haven't.

And PLEASE take that wish back.
And in what terms is Britain not better, if you can elaborate. That place seems best to me. But yet I am not as well aware as you.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Did you visit Madain Saleh? Edge of the World, Wahba Crater...? Buy the book "Desert Tracks from Riyadh" and you will have "where to" for every weekend.

Never happened anything similar in any Jeddah mall or soak.

We feel much safer walking after sunset in Jeddah than in any western city.

You can learn here a lot if you want. If you want only to improve your CV then maybe not the best place.

WTF... it is your FREE decision to come and stay here. Doesn't it?

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

I feel much safer in Riyadh than I did living in the UK and find the work environment much more enjoyable - there's miles more opportunities here for me to expand my cv than back in the UK...by the time Call me Dave has finished rogering the economy I'll have lost all interest in returning to the UK.
Instead of focussing on all the stuff you can't do in Saudi why not try and seek out some of the things you can do...there's plenty to do if you bother going looking for it.
If you really don't like KSA or Saudi's then go somewhere else.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

1. Since the thread is about comparing UAE and KSA, still KSA hasn't got much. Secondly Jeddah indeed is a little more modern than the capital. There definitely are such places in Riyadh as well but not every one can afford them.

2. Jeddah and Dammam specially have more amount of expatriates so this never happened to you. Secondly a lot of ethnic Indonesians who became Saudis reside there. The main purpose of the city of Jeddah is to serve the pilgrims. And the residents of Jeddah and the Western province aren't that much of Saudis ethnically; remember this area was under ottoman control?
Women in Jeddah are the most empowered in the entire Kingdom. And also the most educated. There were also some protests there by them. And 2nd last but not least Europeans enjoy a little better of an experience. And now the last that do keep in mind that we are comparing KSA and UAE.

3. Again Jeddah a bit different. But know that every thing about a country starts developing in the capital and gradually spreads. Compound life is different you are not worried when you are asleep. Ask those who live outside, they can't even buy a new car because it definitely will get stolen. Also the thieves prefer looting the foreigners over the locals.

4. If it is really true please inform me how. A student can't get a summer internship here unless he is Saudi national. He can't get a part-time job like at McDonald's. There is a board hanging out of the restaurant near my house that specifically mentions ONLY FOR LOCALS. Your son can't get admission at the national university like King Saud University. There are some privates which are extremely expensive and nothing like study happens around there. American faculties even avoid coming here. Correct that there are some computer learning centers but only for computer and just basic courses. Some companies do call for instructors from abroad specially Germany but the foreigners are not offered those certified courses instead they would offer the same to someone who is not even concerned. And they usually don't even attend the course. If they have to they keep making disturbance one way or another. And by the way you need a CV to move on and to display your qualification. You can't go to BMW and ask them to employ you for that you have read engineering books, but have not even done the advanced levels.

5. Again I am just giving a comparison. It is his choice to come or not, just telling him to be ready for it. And for your information if the expatriates quit coming here the won't even know what to do with the black sticky liquid that keeps coming from the underneath. Face it we all come here for tax-free income. And forget about the foreigners even the locals are not that FREE in some situations. And the freedom I am talking about is not the Beach freedom if that's where you are deflected, I am talking about the freedom to live. Foreigners here are deprived of a lot of acts every other country allows the expatriates. Dubai isn't any better in fact none of the GCC. But COMPARATIVELY better. Again I mentioned below in the previous quote if you can find any other place than GULF then prefer that. Still if the pay is good enough come but don't stay for too long.

No offense but if you have experienced something good not really will everyone else and vice versa.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Compare comparable and relevant things.

What acts you are missing? Participation in votings? protests & demnonstrations? Getting unemployment or large-family allowance?...

What your university-aged son is doing here? Or you are talking about yourself?

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

I just spat coffee on my computer screen.

That's got to be bollocks surely?

I've not been, I will soon enough for work but expect it to be far from enjoyable. 99% of people who have been there are unlikely to be wrong about it not being particularly nice...looking at it logically.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

To Henry Gale


Just out of curiosity, where are you from?

I thought initially you were an American from your user name, but clearly English (even American English) isn't your first language.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Me? English not my first language? Thanks, Meow..........

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

I stand by it.......... I've worked with every nationality in the GCC except Omanis....... I'll take the Saudis every time.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Oops! Sorry! I was refering to 'Henry Gale'

:wub:

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

I mostly agree with The Dean on this. Have also been impressed with some Kuwaitis.

Saudi can be enjoyable but it takes quite some effort. I'm going to be quite disappointed if I don't end up going back, especially as I was hoping to get to Mada'in Saleh this autumn!

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Remember those recent handouts, the non-nationals hardly got any benefit of it. You surely will say it is so because we are not citizens. Then does it also mean we are not fueling the economy. Here is a thought experiment. What would destabilize more
1. Protests
2. Or that all expatriates leave whether it is the blue collar or any other.
For sure no one would leave. But can we call this fair play. This is called manipulation.
Sometimes you can't even lead any local in a queue; although this is very rare.
You can't complain to police if the complaint is against a national.
You can't own a house. And the list goes on and on ....

On the other hand in a compound life you encounter less locals. It is safer so you hardly have to contact police. And already have a good enough house in the compound.
You aren't the only expatriate here. As I mentioned earlier your if you live a compound life you don't know much.

If it really is that good place for expatriates then why is it that other Gulf countries hold more expatriates than here.

And is this all you could question from the previous post?

You are true that expatriates are not the citizens. There is a huge difference. But again remember we were comparing. And as far as that comparison matters, well .....

Thank you for your time.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

The name is just a username, inspired from someplace though. How did you notice?

Even Indian English isn't my first language. That should give a clue. Can't disclose much.

Hope that serves your curiosity.

Re: Saudi "Hardship" Premium vs UAE Salary?
 

Fair play.

I couldn't say one way or the other, and it's all down to personal experience. I'll let you know what I think once I've visited.