How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
Oct 10th 2012, 3:45 pm
#16
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
Good thread - but I will risk spoiling it by jumping in with my 'Personal Pet CV Hate', something which I think does more harm than good..........
..... that opening written-in-the-third-person paragraph that so many people include. What is the point of that???
"John Smith is a focused, results-driven innovator with excellent communication skills and a proven track record at beating budget targets......... blah......... blah......... blah........."
Oh HE is, is he? So who wrote the CV? Either write it in the first person or - far better - leave it out altogether. It's subjective, a matter of opinion, and cannot add anything to the impression the interviewer will get anyway........... and if the interviewer gets a different impression, you're out of contention.
..... that opening written-in-the-third-person paragraph that so many people include. What is the point of that???
"John Smith is a focused, results-driven innovator with excellent communication skills and a proven track record at beating budget targets......... blah......... blah......... blah........."
Oh HE is, is he? So who wrote the CV? Either write it in the first person or - far better - leave it out altogether. It's subjective, a matter of opinion, and cannot add anything to the impression the interviewer will get anyway........... and if the interviewer gets a different impression, you're out of contention.
Oct 11th 2012, 4:20 am
#17
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
So true. Why do people talk in the 3rd person? I wonder who first thought it was a good idea?
If I do that on a CV, its always first person. If you want to talk about yourself - you should own it and take the consequences!
My husband got feedback from someone locally to take it off (not helpful) and give him more room on the CV. He then got told by another senior recruiter to put it back on. He has one with it on and one with it off now!
The argument made for keeping it was "We dont get any sense of who you are" - "You want to say something that makes us think you'll be a good fit/ interesting candidate". And I guess as an ex behaviourist, these days it is a lot about how you do the job rather than what you know, also fit for culture.
I also think the "Personal Summary" can give you an opportunity to put your values up front (if you have any!) so you dont get a great financial offer from somewhere where the fit is not good. I just hate when that happens!! You want the job, its great, the money is awesome but the people are dodgy - you turn them down and they offer you even more money because they think you are playing hard to get!!
If I do that on a CV, its always first person. If you want to talk about yourself - you should own it and take the consequences!
My husband got feedback from someone locally to take it off (not helpful) and give him more room on the CV. He then got told by another senior recruiter to put it back on. He has one with it on and one with it off now!
The argument made for keeping it was "We dont get any sense of who you are" - "You want to say something that makes us think you'll be a good fit/ interesting candidate". And I guess as an ex behaviourist, these days it is a lot about how you do the job rather than what you know, also fit for culture.
I also think the "Personal Summary" can give you an opportunity to put your values up front (if you have any!) so you dont get a great financial offer from somewhere where the fit is not good. I just hate when that happens!! You want the job, its great, the money is awesome but the people are dodgy - you turn them down and they offer you even more money because they think you are playing hard to get!!
Oct 11th 2012, 4:41 am
#18
You read these things?
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,261
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
So true. Why do people talk in the 3rd person? I wonder who first thought it was a good idea?
If I do that on a CV, its always first person. If you want to talk about yourself - you should own it and take the consequences!
My husband got feedback from someone locally to take it off (not helpful) and give him more room on the CV. He then got told by another senior recruiter to put it back on. He has one with it on and one with it off now!
The argument made for keeping it was "We dont get any sense of who you are" - "You want to say something that makes us think you'll be a good fit/ interesting candidate". And I guess as an ex behaviourist, these days it is a lot about how you do the job rather than what you know, also fit for culture.
I also think the "Personal Summary" can give you an opportunity to put your values up front (if you have any!) so you dont get a great financial offer from somewhere where the fit is not good. I just hate when that happens!! You want the job, its great, the money is awesome but the people are dodgy - you turn them down and they offer you even more money because they think you are playing hard to get!!
If I do that on a CV, its always first person. If you want to talk about yourself - you should own it and take the consequences!
My husband got feedback from someone locally to take it off (not helpful) and give him more room on the CV. He then got told by another senior recruiter to put it back on. He has one with it on and one with it off now!
The argument made for keeping it was "We dont get any sense of who you are" - "You want to say something that makes us think you'll be a good fit/ interesting candidate". And I guess as an ex behaviourist, these days it is a lot about how you do the job rather than what you know, also fit for culture.
I also think the "Personal Summary" can give you an opportunity to put your values up front (if you have any!) so you dont get a great financial offer from somewhere where the fit is not good. I just hate when that happens!! You want the job, its great, the money is awesome but the people are dodgy - you turn them down and they offer you even more money because they think you are playing hard to get!!
Oct 11th 2012, 4:49 am
#19
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
My CV has three lines at the top. Not sure what 'person' it is written in actually because I never say 'I', I certainly don't say 'Scamp is..' it just describes a little about what I've done....which is very little.
That being said. I don't know why it's on there. I think it was my father insisting because he always read them. I've never read one. I've mastered reading a CV and working out if it's worth reading in about 4 seconds.
That being said. I don't know why it's on there. I think it was my father insisting because he always read them. I've never read one. I've mastered reading a CV and working out if it's worth reading in about 4 seconds.
Oct 12th 2012, 10:06 am
#21
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
I ignore pictures. There are so many of them and 9/10 times the person is on Linkedin with a picture too.
I can read a CV in 4 seconds to see if I want to read it properly or discard it. Things I look at:
Companies worked for
Job title
Time at company
From those three things I can establish if it's worth reading.
It's horrible but true.
I can read a CV in 4 seconds to see if I want to read it properly or discard it. Things I look at:
Companies worked for
Job title
Time at company
From those three things I can establish if it's worth reading.
It's horrible but true.
Oct 12th 2012, 10:30 am
#22
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
I once many years ago did a graduate recruitment round for a multi national in London, 2030+ CVs. So I know exactly what you mean. With large numbers, you do get down to some very arbitrary and skimpy sorting, with many Cvs only getting a few seconds.
And lets face it, recent past behaiour is strongly indicative of likely future behaviour so a successful CV does tend to be self evident.
But I am wondering about the whole issue of truthfulness. Have you seen the recent stats for how often people lie on CVs? I always imagined that meant you maybe massaged the dates by a few months here and there when you left a job at under 12 months etc or maybe had a falling out and didnt get another job for a few months.
But following your advice Scamp, I got my husband to go through his last 5 jobs and look up all his old contacts/colleagues etc and he was kind of horrified to discover that some of the people he didnt rate very highly have really rocketed up the line.
We were both feeling a bit depressed about it when I was reading one of them and I noticed that the dates and job titles were all wrong for say 2 consecutive jobs that we knew of at that time. So its there in black and white - on Linked In - 3 successful individuals (we are talking about CEO level of mid sized companies) who have lied about what they have done. The reason I noticed was because one guy said he did my husbands job at the same time my husband did so it kind of stuck out
So I am wondering whether this is common - as a recruiter how much do you check or do you assume that the last 2 years is really the only relevant thing anyway?
And lets face it, recent past behaiour is strongly indicative of likely future behaviour so a successful CV does tend to be self evident.
But I am wondering about the whole issue of truthfulness. Have you seen the recent stats for how often people lie on CVs? I always imagined that meant you maybe massaged the dates by a few months here and there when you left a job at under 12 months etc or maybe had a falling out and didnt get another job for a few months.
But following your advice Scamp, I got my husband to go through his last 5 jobs and look up all his old contacts/colleagues etc and he was kind of horrified to discover that some of the people he didnt rate very highly have really rocketed up the line.
We were both feeling a bit depressed about it when I was reading one of them and I noticed that the dates and job titles were all wrong for say 2 consecutive jobs that we knew of at that time. So its there in black and white - on Linked In - 3 successful individuals (we are talking about CEO level of mid sized companies) who have lied about what they have done. The reason I noticed was because one guy said he did my husbands job at the same time my husband did so it kind of stuck out
So I am wondering whether this is common - as a recruiter how much do you check or do you assume that the last 2 years is really the only relevant thing anyway?
Oct 12th 2012, 10:39 am
#23
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
I once many years ago did a graduate recruitment round for a multi national in London, 2030+ CVs. So I know exactly what you mean. With large numbers, you do get down to some very arbitrary and skimpy sorting, with many Cvs only getting a few seconds.
And lets face it, recent past behaiour is strongly indicative of likely future behaviour so a successful CV does tend to be self evident.
But I am wondering about the whole issue of truthfulness. Have you seen the recent stats for how often people lie on CVs? I always imagined that meant you maybe massaged the dates by a few months here and there when you left a job at under 12 months etc or maybe had a falling out and didnt get another job for a few months.
But following your advice Scamp, I got my husband to go through his last 5 jobs and look up all his old contacts/colleagues etc and he was kind of horrified to discover that some of the people he didnt rate very highly have really rocketed up the line.
We were both feeling a bit depressed about it when I was reading one of them and I noticed that the dates and job titles were all wrong for say 2 consecutive jobs that we knew of at that time. So its there in black and white - on Linked In - 3 successful individuals (we are talking about CEO level of mid sized companies) who have lied about what they have done. The reason I noticed was because one guy said he did my husbands job at the same time my husband did so it kind of stuck out
So I am wondering whether this is common - as a recruiter how much do you check or do you assume that the last 2 years is really the only relevant thing anyway?
And lets face it, recent past behaiour is strongly indicative of likely future behaviour so a successful CV does tend to be self evident.
But I am wondering about the whole issue of truthfulness. Have you seen the recent stats for how often people lie on CVs? I always imagined that meant you maybe massaged the dates by a few months here and there when you left a job at under 12 months etc or maybe had a falling out and didnt get another job for a few months.
But following your advice Scamp, I got my husband to go through his last 5 jobs and look up all his old contacts/colleagues etc and he was kind of horrified to discover that some of the people he didnt rate very highly have really rocketed up the line.
We were both feeling a bit depressed about it when I was reading one of them and I noticed that the dates and job titles were all wrong for say 2 consecutive jobs that we knew of at that time. So its there in black and white - on Linked In - 3 successful individuals (we are talking about CEO level of mid sized companies) who have lied about what they have done. The reason I noticed was because one guy said he did my husbands job at the same time my husband did so it kind of stuck out
So I am wondering whether this is common - as a recruiter how much do you check or do you assume that the last 2 years is really the only relevant thing anyway?
I reference everyone that I get an interview.
In construction it's quite easy...."Mr X, was joe Bloggs any good?"
That's sort of all it takes. You will find people massage the dates a bit if they weren't working for a month but I see no real issue in that.
Blatantly telling porkies about your title, role and responsibilities and level is wrong. You will get found out eventually because the next co. will see you can't really do the job even though your CV says you can.
Stay honest.
Oct 13th 2012, 12:26 am
#24
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
The problem with reference checking is that statistically it isnt very reliable.
Being in NZ has really opened my eyes about the reference thing. Both my husband and I have had the experience here that people get glowing references to get rid of them. In Nz, people dont like to performance manage others so they give people the message one way or another and expect them to get another job. The person goes and gets another job eventually and they get a glowing reference to get rid of them. This happens particularly where the person may be technically competent but has a personality or attitude problem.
This is also typical too, my husband has got his referees lined up and each said sure - "You just need to tell me what I need to say to them". I dont think any of them would lie outright but they would play up certain aspects and probably play down others.
I do think however being a good recruiter with longevity is about instinct. And I have certainly met recruiters who get it right pretty much every time. Doing testing, you can see the good recruiters as the candidates they send for final testing pretty much always test up strong. Others are just hopeless - you keep seeing dud profiles and they usually go ahead and take them on! (I might get crucified for saying this but I have seen this more frequently within HR departments rather than agencies, although some technical recruiters can be equally bad)
Being in NZ has really opened my eyes about the reference thing. Both my husband and I have had the experience here that people get glowing references to get rid of them. In Nz, people dont like to performance manage others so they give people the message one way or another and expect them to get another job. The person goes and gets another job eventually and they get a glowing reference to get rid of them. This happens particularly where the person may be technically competent but has a personality or attitude problem.
This is also typical too, my husband has got his referees lined up and each said sure - "You just need to tell me what I need to say to them". I dont think any of them would lie outright but they would play up certain aspects and probably play down others.
I do think however being a good recruiter with longevity is about instinct. And I have certainly met recruiters who get it right pretty much every time. Doing testing, you can see the good recruiters as the candidates they send for final testing pretty much always test up strong. Others are just hopeless - you keep seeing dud profiles and they usually go ahead and take them on! (I might get crucified for saying this but I have seen this more frequently within HR departments rather than agencies, although some technical recruiters can be equally bad)
Oct 13th 2012, 3:17 pm
#25
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
If someone gives a bullshit good reference, then you just go and find your own if you aren't sure.
I use them to add weight to what I think already. I know which way a reference will go (most of the time) before I take it.
If still unsatisfied with who they have provided, then I'll go digging and find someone that knows them from the same project / company.
It is worth the ballache.
Oct 13th 2012, 3:50 pm
#26
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
There are so many unethical and unprofessional practices that go on out here when it comes to employers....... and some are simply illegal.
My pet recruitment hate is when the employer asks for details of your current salary package.
A) It's none of your ****ing business.
B) If I tell you that, I am almost certainly in breach of the terms of my contract with my current employer.
C) It's competitor-sensitive information ('We hired a guy from XYZ Corp recently, and we were surprised how little they were paying him. On that basis, we are going to try and poach another guy we like over there - if the salaries are that low, we should be able to tempt him easily').
D) It's completely irrelevant.
E) If you believe the right salary for the job you are offering is AED 50,000 per month, are you going to offer me only 35,000 because you have found out my current salary is 30,000? Shame on you.
F) It's just............... wrong.
My pet recruitment hate is when the employer asks for details of your current salary package.
A) It's none of your ****ing business.
B) If I tell you that, I am almost certainly in breach of the terms of my contract with my current employer.
C) It's competitor-sensitive information ('We hired a guy from XYZ Corp recently, and we were surprised how little they were paying him. On that basis, we are going to try and poach another guy we like over there - if the salaries are that low, we should be able to tempt him easily').
D) It's completely irrelevant.
E) If you believe the right salary for the job you are offering is AED 50,000 per month, are you going to offer me only 35,000 because you have found out my current salary is 30,000? Shame on you.
F) It's just............... wrong.
Oct 13th 2012, 4:13 pm
#27
Hit 16's
Joined: Mar 2010
Location: Of all the gin joints, in all the towns, in all the world, she walks into mine
Posts: 13,112
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
There are so many unethical and unprofessional practices that go on out here when it comes to employers....... and some are simply illegal.
My pet recruitment hate is when the employer asks for details of your current salary package.
A) It's none of your ****ing business.
B) If I tell you that, I am almost certainly in breach of the terms of my contract with my current employer.
C) It's competitor-sensitive information ('We hired a guy from XYZ Corp recently, and we were surprised how little they were paying him. On that basis, we are going to try and poach another guy we like over there - if the salaries are that low, we should be able to tempt him easily').
D) It's completely irrelevant.
E) If you believe the right salary for the job you are offering is AED 50,000 per month, are you going to offer me only 35,000 because you have found out my current salary is 30,000? Shame on you.
F) It's just............... wrong.
My pet recruitment hate is when the employer asks for details of your current salary package.
A) It's none of your ****ing business.
B) If I tell you that, I am almost certainly in breach of the terms of my contract with my current employer.
C) It's competitor-sensitive information ('We hired a guy from XYZ Corp recently, and we were surprised how little they were paying him. On that basis, we are going to try and poach another guy we like over there - if the salaries are that low, we should be able to tempt him easily').
D) It's completely irrelevant.
E) If you believe the right salary for the job you are offering is AED 50,000 per month, are you going to offer me only 35,000 because you have found out my current salary is 30,000? Shame on you.
F) It's just............... wrong.
Especially A). Well, and B-F). Recruiters have got really shitty with me in the past about this but I've stood firm. Only one refused to deal with me, but by then I'd wheedled enough info from the prick to find out who the client was and then applied directly.
Oct 13th 2012, 10:38 pm
#28
Just Joined
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Joined: Oct 2012
Posts: 10
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
Interesting - and I totally agree!! We dont have that so much over here. Very few jobs have their salaries on and whilst you get asked what you are looking for, few people ask what you are on. In fact if they do, I am pretty sure everyone would inflate the answer!
Right on all counts - and one thing you didnt mention is - just because you earn X does not mean you are worth X. We all know people get paid a lot more than they are worth!
Maybe they have picked up some bad habits during the down turn which may come back to bite them as the market picks up ....
Right on all counts - and one thing you didnt mention is - just because you earn X does not mean you are worth X. We all know people get paid a lot more than they are worth!
Maybe they have picked up some bad habits during the down turn which may come back to bite them as the market picks up ....
Oct 14th 2012, 3:04 am
#29
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,553
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
Interesting - and I totally agree!! We dont have that so much over here. Very few jobs have their salaries on and whilst you get asked what you are looking for, few people ask what you are on. In fact if they do, I am pretty sure everyone would inflate the answer!
Right on all counts - and one thing you didnt mention is - just because you earn X does not mean you are worth X. We all know people get paid a lot more than they are worth!
Maybe they have picked up some bad habits during the down turn which may come back to bite them as the market picks up ....
Right on all counts - and one thing you didnt mention is - just because you earn X does not mean you are worth X. We all know people get paid a lot more than they are worth!
Maybe they have picked up some bad habits during the down turn which may come back to bite them as the market picks up ....
Oct 14th 2012, 4:37 am
#30
Account Closed
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 0
Re: How hard is it to get a managers job in the Middle East/Dubai?
There are so many unethical and unprofessional practices that go on out here when it comes to employers....... and some are simply illegal.
My pet recruitment hate is when the employer asks for details of your current salary package.
A) It's none of your ****ing business.
B) If I tell you that, I am almost certainly in breach of the terms of my contract with my current employer.
C) It's competitor-sensitive information ('We hired a guy from XYZ Corp recently, and we were surprised how little they were paying him. On that basis, we are going to try and poach another guy we like over there - if the salaries are that low, we should be able to tempt him easily').
D) It's completely irrelevant.
E) If you believe the right salary for the job you are offering is AED 50,000 per month, are you going to offer me only 35,000 because you have found out my current salary is 30,000? Shame on you.
F) It's just............... wrong.
My pet recruitment hate is when the employer asks for details of your current salary package.
A) It's none of your ****ing business.
B) If I tell you that, I am almost certainly in breach of the terms of my contract with my current employer.
C) It's competitor-sensitive information ('We hired a guy from XYZ Corp recently, and we were surprised how little they were paying him. On that basis, we are going to try and poach another guy we like over there - if the salaries are that low, we should be able to tempt him easily').
D) It's completely irrelevant.
E) If you believe the right salary for the job you are offering is AED 50,000 per month, are you going to offer me only 35,000 because you have found out my current salary is 30,000? Shame on you.
F) It's just............... wrong.
The reason I ask is because I will be asked.
However, I get it. I get points A and B entirely.
C - Hmm, it's a true point but it's useful information to whoever is asking, just as a guide if anything. I can list you the top 5 and bottom 5 payers out of the major contractors....because I've asked that question enough.
D - Agree to disagree
E - That's the kind of thing that employers WILL try and do.
F - Can't really argue if that's what you think.
Not really a big deal if you're being approached for a specific, senior position.