Alphatrion-Tjw

At lot of conversation revolve around couple who are going for citizenship;
which I understand is the average way things work. Maybe this is what makes
us unusual on the whole tourist visa to AOS trail. My wife isn't going to
got for a green-card/citizenship. She's just adjusting to a permeate (sp)
resident in order to stay in the states with me and our son. She still has
a internet service account in Canada we pay for, she still has a back
account in Canada, 98% of her clothes and possessions are still in Canada.
She has made it clear time and time again she has no desire to live in the
USA for the rest of her life or to be a US citizen. As a PR she's not
elgible for a lot of the same benfits as a USC which means she's giving up
something that is a option for her with just a couple extra piece sof
paperwork. Maybe that's why when we talk to the INS their not as hardass
about some of the rules as they are on those that go for a green-card. I
guess they don't see a lot of PR cases where the petitioner doesn't want
citizenship in any form. Just a thought I had

meauxna

Permanent Residency -is- a green card. Many PRs never apply for citizenship.

Rete

Toby

All that is fine. There is no need for her to naturalize but her desire not to do so does not mean the USCIS not less hardass with you then with those planning on naturalizing. After all, how the heck do they know what your plans are down the line. It is not asked on any of the petitions she or you have completed. So I think your thoughts are on the wrong path.

As for her naturalizing, why not? If she is going to be here for another 3 years why not become a USC and ensure that she can move back and forth across the US/Can border without having to get a new PR status if her present one is considered abandoned. After all she does have a son with US citizenship and Canadian citizenship. She also loses out on the lower estate tax not being a USC.

The ease of moving back and forth across the border to live for extended periods of time and the estate tax issue were two of the important pivotal factors in my Canadian becoming a US Citizen.

But as maxie said, and I reiterate her statement, your wife does not have to become a citizen. The choice is hers and as long as she obeys the rules and regulations governing her residency, she can remain a resident as long as she lives.

Rete

Alphatrion-Tjw

    >> After all, how the heck do they know what your plans are down the line.
It is not asked on any of
    > the petitions she or you have completed. So I think your thoughts are on
the wrong path.<<

We've actually been asked it a couple of times when we've been on teh phone
with the National Service Center and Memphis

    > As for her naturalizing, why not? If she is going to be here for another
3 years why not become a USC and ensure that she
    > can move back and forth across the US/Can border without having to get a
new PR status if her present one is considered abandoned. After all she
does have a son with US citizenship and Canadian citizenship.

Well actually Canada is not recongnizing our son as a Candaian citizen. We
have to file for Canadian citizenship for him if we move up there; we've
already talked to Canadian immigration about this one a couple of times.
He's 100% USC as far as their concerned. And we've discussed filing for dual
citizenship for him now, but have decided to wait till he's a little older
and we can explain to him. If we move back to Canada anytime in the next
couple of years we'll just get him landed immigrant status like me. And as
for not going for the USC, she's said she won't do it because she's proud to
be Canadian. And I'm not going to force the issue on her it's her choice.

    > The ease of moving back and forth across the border to live for extended
periods of time and the estate tax issue were two of the important pivotal
factors in my Canadian becoming a US Citizen.

We haven't really looked at the tex issue, but I doubt it'd be a major
factor in our decesions. Plus I'm going back to school pretty soon myself,
so any move will be off the boards for at least 2 to 3 years while I get my
degree.

sphyrapicus

If the child has a Canadian parent then he is entitled to Canadian citizenship. Canada is not recognizing him as a citizen because you did not apply for citizenship on his behalf yet. I wouldn't get him landed immigrant status if he is entitled to citizenship.

I'm proud to be Canadian too but that is not stopping me from seeking USC. I would like the ability to leave the U.S. for extended periods of time (e.g. to Canada) without having my PR status compromised and I would like to be able to vote as a contributing member of society.

Jim Battista

"AlphaTrion-TJW" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

    > And as for not going for the USC, she's said she won't do it
    > because she's proud to be Canadian. And I'm not going to force the
    > issue on her it's her choice.

Well, it's her business. She knows, though, that Canada doesn't care
if the US thinks she's American? That is, that Canada tolerates dual
nationality?

It seems generally a bit silly to forego benefits -- even if it's
just avoiding paying a fee every ten years and having to file the
occasional paperwork -- for the sake of patriotic attachments. It's
not like Canada is going to forego some sort of benefit because it's
proud to have your wife as a citizen. Why should she do the reverse?

But then I don't get this patriotism stuff. I'd be happy to take
citizenship from any country that (1) won't make me do much and (2)
doesn't care if I have other citizenships.

But, still, her business.

--
Jim Battista
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.

Rich Wales

"AlphaTrion-TJW" wrote:

> Well actually Canada is not recognizing our son as a
> Canadian citizen. We have to file for Canadian citi-
> zenship for him if we move up there; we've already
> talked to Canadian immigration about this one a couple
> of times. He's 100% USC as far as they're concerned.

Your wife is Canadian, right?

If so, then your son also has Canadian citizenship. Under paragraph
3(1)(b) of Canada's current (since 1977) Citizenship Act, any child
born outside Canada to a Canadian parent is automatically a Canadian
citizen from birth -- just as if he had been born in Canada.

This is in addition to his having US citizenship. That is, he is
already a "born dual" citizen of both the US and Canada. The US
thinks your son is a US citizen, and Canada (once they know about
your son's situation -- see below) will think your son is a Cana-
dian citizen, and neither country will mind or even care about what
the other country thinks.

Now, since your son was born outside Canada, Canadian officials won't
realize (and may not believe) that your son is a Canadian citizen
unless you and your wife apply for the proper documentation to show
this fact. What you need to do is to apply for your son to get a
"Certificate of Canadian Citizenship" (also commonly called a "citi-
zenship card"). You can find the application form online at:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/applications/certif2.html

Note that the above form is NOT an application for your son to
BECOME a Canadian citizen. He already became a Canadian citizen
the moment he was born. What the application will do is document
the already existing FACT that your son already IS a Canadian.

There is, as far as I can imagine, no reason at all not to do this
right away. And just to be sure you're not labouring under a widely
held misconception, a dual US/Canadian citizen can legally keep both
citizenships for life; anything you might ever have heard or thought
about "born duals" having to choose a single citizenship when they
grow up is an urban myth and is NOT TRUE.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Alphatrion-Tjw

That's what we thought was that it was automatic. But every gov. official
we've spoke to in Canada says "nope he's gotta to file for citizenship. He
was born outside of Canada." It might be the fact that my wife hasn't lived
in Canda for the last two years, since we've been married.

Rich Wales

"AlphaTrion-TJW" wrote:

> That's what we thought was that it was automatic. But every
> gov. official we've spoke to in Canada says "nope he's gotta
> to file for citizenship. He was born outside of Canada."

You might possibly have misunderstood some nuance in what you were
being told -- specifically, confusing an application for a citi-
zenship certificate (the thing I described in my earlier posting)
with the process of immigration followed by naturalization (what
Canadian law calls a "grant" of citizenship).

As I said earlier, Canadian law says that a child born outside
Canada to a Canadian parent is automatically a Canadian citizen.
Without a citizenship certificate (citizenship card), though, your
son doesn't have anything that will prove his Canadian status to a
Canadian border official. His birth certificate, for example, won't
satisfy anyone that he's Canadian, since (if I understood correctly)
he was born in the US. You need to get him a citizenship card.

If the Canadian officials you spoke to really did mean to say that
your son is not a Canadian citizen at all because he wasn't born in
Canada -- even though his mother is Canadian -- and that he must
apply for immigration to Canada, followed eventually by a "grant"
of Canadian citizenship (i.e., naturalization) -- then I would be
extremely surprised, because the law very clearly and unambiguously
says that a foreign-born child of a Canadian parent IS a Canadian
citizen and doesn't have to apply to become one.

If you do have occasion to ask Canadian officials again about your
son, be very sure you note whether you're told that he must apply
for a "certificate of citizenship" (what I've been talking about),
or a "grant of citizenship" (the naturalization process -- what I've
been insisting that he does NOT need to do).

> It might be the fact that my wife hasn't lived in Canada for
> the last two years, since we've been married.

No. This wouldn't make any difference at all. A Canadian citizen
can live outside Canada for years or decades at a time, and it
doesn't matter a bit as far as his/her citizenship is concerned.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.

Alphatrion-Tjw

The last time we spoke with the Canadian Immigration office was last month--
when we were dealing with some tax stuff that they had to make a decsion
on-- and they said specifically that just because he was born to a CSC that
does not give him Canadian citizenship. We have to file a normal
family-sponsored immigration petition for him when we move back to Canada,
just like we would have to do for me. They said they do not automatically
give dual citizenship upon birth to children born outside of Canada to a
Canadian citizen. So maybe the rules have changed or something. In fact
we have a paper here somewhere that we jsut filed with my wife's taxes that
is a immigration note saying that my is a resident/citisen of Canada and
that my son is deemed a dependent of a Canadian citizen but is not a
resident/citizen of Canada. It certainly seems that they have over the
course of the two years that we've been dealing with them on both sides of
the border.

meauxna

omg...
you don't think that maybe the Canadian Immigration dudes give as accurate advice as their US counterparts?

lairdside

LMAO - good one M.

CaliforniaBride

That's the deciding factor for me. I can't imagine never being able to vote. Besides somebody has to cancel out my husbands vote!

CB

Rete

LMAO

My Canadian votes for the first time in the US this coming Tuesday in the Democratic Primary here in New York State. We, too, are on opposite sides of the fence ;-)

Rete

Rich Wales

"AlphaTrion-TJW" wrote:

> The last time we spoke with the Canadian Immigration office
> was last month . . . and they said specifically that just
> because he was born to a [Canadian citizen] that does not
> give him Canadian citizenship. . . . They said they do not
> automatically give dual citizenship upon birth to children
> born outside of Canada to a Canadian citizen. So maybe the
> rules have changed or something.

I'm totally baffled. I really can't imagine any reason at all why a
Canadian immigration official would have told you the above, because
to the best of my understanding, it is simply INCORRECT.

Canadian law dealing with citizenship at birth plainly states that
"a person is a [Canadian] citizen if . . . the person was born
outside Canada after February 14, 1977 and at the time of his birth
one of his parents, other than a parent who adopted him, was a
[Canadian] citizen". [Citizenship Act, 3(1)(b).] This rule has,
as far as I'm aware, been in effect (and has not changed) since the
current Citizenship Act went into effect on 15 Feb. 1977.

See also the following pages on Citizenship and Immigration Canada's
web site:

"Born Outside Canada to a Canadian Parent":
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizen/bornout-info.html

"Application for a Citizenship Certificate from Outside Canada":
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/applications/certif2.html

I would suggest you might want to get a copy of the application
on the second page cited above, go through it very carefully, and
see if you can see anything in the form or the instructions that
would exclude your son.

If you want potentially useful comments on this issue from others on
the net, you might try posting something to misc.immigration.canada,
where you'll find lots of people who are knowledgeable in Canadian
immigration and citizenship matters.

Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.