oath of allegiance
Mar 18th 2004, 1:43 am
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
oath of allegiance
When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
--
Jennifer
their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
--
Jennifer
Mar 18th 2004, 2:17 am
#2
Forum Regular
Joined: Dec 2003
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 55
Re: oath of allegiance
That all depends on the rules of your home country.
Mar 18th 2004, 2:34 am
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: oath of allegiance
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 14:43:01 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] wrote:
>When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
>their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
>http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
Oh but there are plenty of people here who carry dual citizenships
just what the Constitution says to be wary of.
>When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
>their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
>http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
Oh but there are plenty of people here who carry dual citizenships
just what the Constitution says to be wary of.
Mar 18th 2004, 3:51 am
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: oath of allegiance
[email protected] said on 3/18/2004 6:43:
> When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
> their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
> http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
Not necessarily.
Other countries are under no obligation to care about what you say
in front of US government officers.
A lot of countries consider you your citizen unless you explicitly
denounce their citizenship in front of their officers.
-Joe
> When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
> their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
> http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
Not necessarily.
Other countries are under no obligation to care about what you say
in front of US government officers.
A lot of countries consider you your citizen unless you explicitly
denounce their citizenship in front of their officers.
-Joe
Mar 18th 2004, 6:35 am
#6
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: oath of allegiance
On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 08:51:22 -0800, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>
wrote:
>[email protected] said on 3/18/2004 6:43:
>> When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
>> their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
>> http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
>Not necessarily.
>Other countries are under no obligation to care about what you say
>in front of US government officers.
>A lot of countries consider you your citizen unless you explicitly
>denounce their citizenship in front of their officers.
>-Joe
Exactly right!!!
wrote:
>[email protected] said on 3/18/2004 6:43:
>> When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
>> their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
>> http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
>Not necessarily.
>Other countries are under no obligation to care about what you say
>in front of US government officers.
>A lot of countries consider you your citizen unless you explicitly
>denounce their citizenship in front of their officers.
>-Joe
Exactly right!!!
Mar 19th 2004, 2:03 am
#7
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: oath of allegiance
> When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
> their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
> http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
It's true that the US nationality oath does contain a
clause which renounces all prior citizenships. But,
whether that clause actually causes loss of the person's
original citizenship is solely up to the laws of the
original country. There are many countries with
defined procedures for renouncing citizenship and
very often they do not view a statement made in
front of "foreign" officials as causing loss of
their citizenship. Canada and Britain are two such
countries, but there are many more. When a person
from such a country becomes a US citizen, he keeps
his original citizenship because the US renunciation
has no effect under their laws.
The US has come to the conclusion that when a naturalized
citizen's original country continues to view him as being
one of their citizens, then they will not mind if he
continues to hold a passport from that country, but he
must deal with the US just like any other US citizen,
identifying himself to US officials as a US citizen
and entering and leaving the US with a US passport.
Stephen Gallagher
> their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
> http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
It's true that the US nationality oath does contain a
clause which renounces all prior citizenships. But,
whether that clause actually causes loss of the person's
original citizenship is solely up to the laws of the
original country. There are many countries with
defined procedures for renouncing citizenship and
very often they do not view a statement made in
front of "foreign" officials as causing loss of
their citizenship. Canada and Britain are two such
countries, but there are many more. When a person
from such a country becomes a US citizen, he keeps
his original citizenship because the US renunciation
has no effect under their laws.
The US has come to the conclusion that when a naturalized
citizen's original country continues to view him as being
one of their citizens, then they will not mind if he
continues to hold a passport from that country, but he
must deal with the US just like any other US citizen,
identifying himself to US officials as a US citizen
and entering and leaving the US with a US passport.
Stephen Gallagher
Mar 19th 2004, 1:53 pm
#8
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: oath of allegiance
"Stephen Gallagher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
<snip>
> The US has come to the conclusion that when a naturalized
> citizen's original country continues to view him as being
> one of their citizens, then they will not mind if he
> continues to hold a passport from that country, but he
> must deal with the US just like any other US citizen,
> identifying himself to US officials as a US citizen
> and entering and leaving the US with a US passport.
Just curious: what happens if a person maintaining dual-citizenship is
entering or leaving the US does not identify himself as a US citizen and
uses the passport of his other nationality? And why would somebody who is a
US (et al) citizen *want* to identify himself as a foreign national while
entering or leaving the US?
Thanks.
news:[email protected]...
<snip>
> The US has come to the conclusion that when a naturalized
> citizen's original country continues to view him as being
> one of their citizens, then they will not mind if he
> continues to hold a passport from that country, but he
> must deal with the US just like any other US citizen,
> identifying himself to US officials as a US citizen
> and entering and leaving the US with a US passport.
Just curious: what happens if a person maintaining dual-citizenship is
entering or leaving the US does not identify himself as a US citizen and
uses the passport of his other nationality? And why would somebody who is a
US (et al) citizen *want* to identify himself as a foreign national while
entering or leaving the US?
Thanks.
Mar 20th 2004, 2:08 am
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: oath of allegiance
"Robert E. Lewis" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>.. .
> "Stephen Gallagher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> <snip>
>
> > The US has come to the conclusion that when a naturalized
> > citizen's original country continues to view him as being
> > one of their citizens, then they will not mind if he
> > continues to hold a passport from that country, but he
> > must deal with the US just like any other US citizen,
> > identifying himself to US officials as a US citizen
> > and entering and leaving the US with a US passport.
>
>
> Just curious: what happens if a person maintaining dual-citizenship is
> entering or leaving the US does not identify himself as a US citizen and
> uses the passport of his other nationality?
It's against the law for a US citizen to enter or leave the
US without a valid US passport (except under certain conditions
like travel to Canada or the Carribean, or for military purposes).
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1185.html See subsection b.
If a dual US-other citizen were to enter the US on his
"other" passport, he can be subject to fine, although
that fine is currently set at $0. If it were obvious that
this person were a US citizen, then the person would
probably get a severe lecture from immigration as to how
he is supposed to use a US passport.
> And why would somebody who is a
> US (et al) citizen *want* to identify himself as
> a foreign national while entering or leaving the US?
One reason could be to evade US taxes. The US has different
tax rules for non-citizens than it does for citizens,
and he may want the US not to know that he is a
US citizen by not using a US passport (this would work
if he were born abroad to US citizen parents, and therefore
would be a US citizen, but would have a US birthplace in
his passport).
Stephen
> "Stephen Gallagher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> <snip>
>
> > The US has come to the conclusion that when a naturalized
> > citizen's original country continues to view him as being
> > one of their citizens, then they will not mind if he
> > continues to hold a passport from that country, but he
> > must deal with the US just like any other US citizen,
> > identifying himself to US officials as a US citizen
> > and entering and leaving the US with a US passport.
>
>
> Just curious: what happens if a person maintaining dual-citizenship is
> entering or leaving the US does not identify himself as a US citizen and
> uses the passport of his other nationality?
It's against the law for a US citizen to enter or leave the
US without a valid US passport (except under certain conditions
like travel to Canada or the Carribean, or for military purposes).
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1185.html See subsection b.
If a dual US-other citizen were to enter the US on his
"other" passport, he can be subject to fine, although
that fine is currently set at $0. If it were obvious that
this person were a US citizen, then the person would
probably get a severe lecture from immigration as to how
he is supposed to use a US passport.
> And why would somebody who is a
> US (et al) citizen *want* to identify himself as
> a foreign national while entering or leaving the US?
One reason could be to evade US taxes. The US has different
tax rules for non-citizens than it does for citizens,
and he may want the US not to know that he is a
US citizen by not using a US passport (this would work
if he were born abroad to US citizen parents, and therefore
would be a US citizen, but would have a US birthplace in
his passport).
Stephen
Mar 20th 2004, 3:30 am
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: oath of allegiance
Robert E. Lewis wrote:
> > And why would somebody who is a US (et al) citizen
> > *want* to identify himself as a foreign national
> > while entering or leaving the US?
Stephen Gallagher replied:
> One reason could be to evade US taxes.
Another (and perfectly legal) reason why a dual US/other citizen
might want to identify himself as a foreign national while leaving
the US could be if he is travelling from the US to his other country
of citizenship.
For example, a dual US/Australian citizen, flying from the US to
Australia, would presumably want / need to check in at the airport
using his Australian passport, for two reasons:
(1) In order to travel to Australia on a US passport, one must have
either a special electronic pre-clearance associated with one's
passport, or else a conventional visa -- either of which costs
money;
and
(2) Australian immigration rules require an Australian citizen to
use an Australian (not foreign) passport to enter Australia --
similar to the US's requirement that a US citizen needs to use
a US (not foreign) passport when entering the US.
Even if a dual US/other citizen is travelling to a third country,
it still might seem desirable for him to use his non-US passport if
travel to the third country in question is harder for US citizens
than for citizens of his other country of citizenship. For example,
since Brazil started photographing and fingerprinting US visitors in
a tit-for-tat reaction to recent US immigration rule changes, a dual
US/Canadian citizen might well be tempted to use his Canadian (not
US) passport for a US-to-Brazil flight.
Note that, while US law generally requires that a US citizen leaving
the US "bears a valid United States passport" [INA 215(b); 8 USC
1185(b)], this appears to require only that an American traveller
must have his US passport on his person as he leaves the country --
without necessarily meaning he would need to show it to anyone or
use it in preference to any other passport he might legally possess.
I'm not totally sure, BTW, how recent US immigration changes requiring
airlines to submit passenger lists for both inbound and outbound
flights electronically to US officials may affect the above. If the
US expects airlines to submit US (not foreign) passport data for dual
US/other citizens flying abroad, then I imagine airlines flying such
people to (for instance) Australia would probably need to gather both
Australian and US passport information from travellers with dual cit-
izenship, in order to satisfy the legal demands of both countries.
(Again, I'm not completely sure if this really is an issue nowadays
or not; I've tried to find out, but so far without success.)
Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
> > And why would somebody who is a US (et al) citizen
> > *want* to identify himself as a foreign national
> > while entering or leaving the US?
Stephen Gallagher replied:
> One reason could be to evade US taxes.
Another (and perfectly legal) reason why a dual US/other citizen
might want to identify himself as a foreign national while leaving
the US could be if he is travelling from the US to his other country
of citizenship.
For example, a dual US/Australian citizen, flying from the US to
Australia, would presumably want / need to check in at the airport
using his Australian passport, for two reasons:
(1) In order to travel to Australia on a US passport, one must have
either a special electronic pre-clearance associated with one's
passport, or else a conventional visa -- either of which costs
money;
and
(2) Australian immigration rules require an Australian citizen to
use an Australian (not foreign) passport to enter Australia --
similar to the US's requirement that a US citizen needs to use
a US (not foreign) passport when entering the US.
Even if a dual US/other citizen is travelling to a third country,
it still might seem desirable for him to use his non-US passport if
travel to the third country in question is harder for US citizens
than for citizens of his other country of citizenship. For example,
since Brazil started photographing and fingerprinting US visitors in
a tit-for-tat reaction to recent US immigration rule changes, a dual
US/Canadian citizen might well be tempted to use his Canadian (not
US) passport for a US-to-Brazil flight.
Note that, while US law generally requires that a US citizen leaving
the US "bears a valid United States passport" [INA 215(b); 8 USC
1185(b)], this appears to require only that an American traveller
must have his US passport on his person as he leaves the country --
without necessarily meaning he would need to show it to anyone or
use it in preference to any other passport he might legally possess.
I'm not totally sure, BTW, how recent US immigration changes requiring
airlines to submit passenger lists for both inbound and outbound
flights electronically to US officials may affect the above. If the
US expects airlines to submit US (not foreign) passport data for dual
US/other citizens flying abroad, then I imagine airlines flying such
people to (for instance) Australia would probably need to gather both
Australian and US passport information from travellers with dual cit-
izenship, in order to satisfy the legal demands of both countries.
(Again, I'm not completely sure if this really is an issue nowadays
or not; I've tried to find out, but so far without success.)
Rich Wales [email protected] http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
*DISCLAIMER: I am not a lawyer, professional immigration consultant,
or consular officer. My comments are for discussion purposes only and
are not intended to be relied upon as legal or professional advice.
Mar 20th 2004, 4:58 am
#11
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: oath of allegiance
On 20 Mar 2004 07:08:50 -0800, [email protected] (Stephen
Gallagher) wrote:
>"Robert E. Lewis" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>.. .
>> "Stephen Gallagher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > The US has come to the conclusion that when a naturalized
>> > citizen's original country continues to view him as being
>> > one of their citizens, then they will not mind if he
>> > continues to hold a passport from that country, but he
>> > must deal with the US just like any other US citizen,
>> > identifying himself to US officials as a US citizen
>> > and entering and leaving the US with a US passport.
>>
>>
>> Just curious: what happens if a person maintaining dual-citizenship is
>> entering or leaving the US does not identify himself as a US citizen and
>> uses the passport of his other nationality?
>It's against the law for a US citizen to enter or leave the
>US without a valid US passport (except under certain conditions
>like travel to Canada or the Carribean, or for military purposes).
>http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1185.html See subsection b.
This is not true of course. One does not need a passport to visit
Mexico or Canada for short amounts of time.
>If a dual US-other citizen were to enter the US on his
>"other" passport, he can be subject to fine, although
>that fine is currently set at $0. If it were obvious that
>this person were a US citizen, then the person would
>probably get a severe lecture from immigration as to how
>he is supposed to use a US passport.
>> And why would somebody who is a
>> US (et al) citizen *want* to identify himself as
>> a foreign national while entering or leaving the US?
Because many only are citizens for the benefits they can get, and I am
not speaking of just welfare type of benefits here, but the benefits
of being able to move around easily is one.
>One reason could be to evade US taxes. The US has different
>tax rules for non-citizens than it does for citizens,
>and he may want the US not to know that he is a
>US citizen by not using a US passport (this would work
>if he were born abroad to US citizen parents, and therefore
>would be a US citizen, but would have a US birthplace in
>his passport).
>Stephen
************************************************** ***
There can be no fifty-fifty American in this country.
There is room here for only 100% Americanism only for
those who are American and nothing else.
~~Theodore Roosevelt
************************************************** ***
Gallagher) wrote:
>"Robert E. Lewis" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>.. .
>> "Stephen Gallagher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > The US has come to the conclusion that when a naturalized
>> > citizen's original country continues to view him as being
>> > one of their citizens, then they will not mind if he
>> > continues to hold a passport from that country, but he
>> > must deal with the US just like any other US citizen,
>> > identifying himself to US officials as a US citizen
>> > and entering and leaving the US with a US passport.
>>
>>
>> Just curious: what happens if a person maintaining dual-citizenship is
>> entering or leaving the US does not identify himself as a US citizen and
>> uses the passport of his other nationality?
>It's against the law for a US citizen to enter or leave the
>US without a valid US passport (except under certain conditions
>like travel to Canada or the Carribean, or for military purposes).
>http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/8/1185.html See subsection b.
This is not true of course. One does not need a passport to visit
Mexico or Canada for short amounts of time.
>If a dual US-other citizen were to enter the US on his
>"other" passport, he can be subject to fine, although
>that fine is currently set at $0. If it were obvious that
>this person were a US citizen, then the person would
>probably get a severe lecture from immigration as to how
>he is supposed to use a US passport.
>> And why would somebody who is a
>> US (et al) citizen *want* to identify himself as
>> a foreign national while entering or leaving the US?
Because many only are citizens for the benefits they can get, and I am
not speaking of just welfare type of benefits here, but the benefits
of being able to move around easily is one.
>One reason could be to evade US taxes. The US has different
>tax rules for non-citizens than it does for citizens,
>and he may want the US not to know that he is a
>US citizen by not using a US passport (this would work
>if he were born abroad to US citizen parents, and therefore
>would be a US citizen, but would have a US birthplace in
>his passport).
>Stephen
************************************************** ***
There can be no fifty-fifty American in this country.
There is room here for only 100% Americanism only for
those who are American and nothing else.
~~Theodore Roosevelt
************************************************** ***
Mar 20th 2004, 8:36 am
#12
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 6,848
Re: oath of allegiance
Originally posted by jeni
When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
--
Jennifer
When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
--
Jennifer
I've often wondered what happens when Americans choose to take up Israeli citizenship? I live in a very Jewish area and many Americans have acquired Israeli passports. (I wonder if indeed any of them have to take part in the Israeli military/perform National Service?)
Mar 20th 2004, 12:17 pm
#13
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: oath of allegiance
Englishmum said on 3/20/2004 13:36:
> Originally posted by jeni
>
>>When one becomes naturalized
>
> I take it they lose their citizenship in
>
>>their native country
>
> according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
>
>>http://uscis.-
>
> gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm"]http://uscis.gov/graphics/services-
> /natz/oath.htm[/url]
>
>>--
>>Jennifer
>
>
>
> I've often wondered
> what happens when Americans choose to take up Israeli citizenship? I
> live in a very Jewish area and many Americans have acquired Israeli
> passports. (I wonder if indeed any of them have to take part in the
> Israeli military/perform National Service?)
Nothing happens.
Actually, the main Supreme Court decision in the 60ies regarding dual
citizenship (Afroyim v. Rusk) had to do with a naturalized US citizen
who took up Israeli citizenship.
See http://www.richw.org/dualcit/cases.html#Afroyim
-Joe
> Originally posted by jeni
>
>>When one becomes naturalized
>
> I take it they lose their citizenship in
>
>>their native country
>
> according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
>
>>http://uscis.-
>
> gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm"]http://uscis.gov/graphics/services-
> /natz/oath.htm[/url]
>
>>--
>>Jennifer
>
>
>
> I've often wondered
> what happens when Americans choose to take up Israeli citizenship? I
> live in a very Jewish area and many Americans have acquired Israeli
> passports. (I wonder if indeed any of them have to take part in the
> Israeli military/perform National Service?)
Nothing happens.
Actually, the main Supreme Court decision in the 60ies regarding dual
citizenship (Afroyim v. Rusk) had to do with a naturalized US citizen
who took up Israeli citizenship.
See http://www.richw.org/dualcit/cases.html#Afroyim
-Joe
Mar 20th 2004, 2:38 pm
#14
Guest
Posts: n/a
Re: oath of allegiance
On Sat, 20 Mar 2004 17:17:11 -0800, Joachim Feise <[email protected]>
wrote:
>Englishmum said on 3/20/2004 13:36:
>> Originally posted by jeni
>>
>>>When one becomes naturalized
>>
>> I take it they lose their citizenship in
>>
>>>their native country
>>
>> according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
>>
>>>http://uscis.-
>>
>> gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm"]http://uscis.gov/graphics/services-
>> /natz/oath.htm[/url]
>>
>>>--
>>>Jennifer
>>
>>
>>
>> I've often wondered
>> what happens when Americans choose to take up Israeli citizenship? I
>> live in a very Jewish area and many Americans have acquired Israeli
>> passports. (I wonder if indeed any of them have to take part in the
>> Israeli military/perform National Service?)
>Nothing happens.
>Actually, the main Supreme Court decision in the 60ies regarding dual
>citizenship (Afroyim v. Rusk) had to do with a naturalized US citizen
>who took up Israeli citizenship.
>See http://www.richw.org/dualcit/cases.html#Afroyim
>-Joe
************************************************** ***
There can be no fifty-fifty American in this country.
There is room here for only 100% Americanism only for
those who are American and nothing else.
~~Theodore Roosevelt
************************************************** ***
wrote:
>Englishmum said on 3/20/2004 13:36:
>> Originally posted by jeni
>>
>>>When one becomes naturalized
>>
>> I take it they lose their citizenship in
>>
>>>their native country
>>
>> according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
>>
>>>http://uscis.-
>>
>> gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm"]http://uscis.gov/graphics/services-
>> /natz/oath.htm[/url]
>>
>>>--
>>>Jennifer
>>
>>
>>
>> I've often wondered
>> what happens when Americans choose to take up Israeli citizenship? I
>> live in a very Jewish area and many Americans have acquired Israeli
>> passports. (I wonder if indeed any of them have to take part in the
>> Israeli military/perform National Service?)
>Nothing happens.
>Actually, the main Supreme Court decision in the 60ies regarding dual
>citizenship (Afroyim v. Rusk) had to do with a naturalized US citizen
>who took up Israeli citizenship.
>See http://www.richw.org/dualcit/cases.html#Afroyim
>-Joe
************************************************** ***
There can be no fifty-fifty American in this country.
There is room here for only 100% Americanism only for
those who are American and nothing else.
~~Theodore Roosevelt
************************************************** ***
Mar 20th 2004, 7:34 pm
#15
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: Birmingham, USA
Posts: 802
Re: oath of allegiance
Originally posted by Joachim Feise
[email protected] said on 3/18/2004 6:43:
> When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
> their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
> http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
Not necessarily.
Other countries are under no obligation to care about what you say
in front of US government officers.
A lot of countries consider you your citizen unless you explicitly
denounce their citizenship in front of their officers.
-Joe
[email protected] said on 3/18/2004 6:43:
> When one becomes naturalized I take it they lose their citizenship in
> their native country according to what the oath of allegiance says at:
> http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/oath.htm
Not necessarily.
Other countries are under no obligation to care about what you say
in front of US government officers.
A lot of countries consider you your citizen unless you explicitly
denounce their citizenship in front of their officers.
-Joe
Last edited by jaytee; Mar 20th 2004 at 7:38 pm.
