Marriage ceremony
Jul 31st 2001, 4:30 am
#1
Guest
Posts: n/a
My fiance and I have started the petition process to bring her to the United States.
We want to have a church ceremony in the country she is from (Mexico) before we come
to the United States to get married. What does the INS think about this? I talked to
two lawyers and they told me that as long as the ceremony "means nothing legally",
that we would be fine. But another friend who deals with the INS told me that we
might have problems if "the ceremony" comes up in the interview process, even though
there is nothing legal about the ceremony.
In reading the laws they all mention, "fiance" or "bona fide marriage", but none of
them define these terms with respect to church ceremonies. Does anyone have insight
or actual experience with this?
We want to have a church ceremony in the country she is from (Mexico) before we come
to the United States to get married. What does the INS think about this? I talked to
two lawyers and they told me that as long as the ceremony "means nothing legally",
that we would be fine. But another friend who deals with the INS told me that we
might have problems if "the ceremony" comes up in the interview process, even though
there is nothing legal about the ceremony.
In reading the laws they all mention, "fiance" or "bona fide marriage", but none of
them define these terms with respect to church ceremonies. Does anyone have insight
or actual experience with this?
Jul 31st 2001, 12:42 pm
#2
Guest
Posts: n/a
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In INS interviews, consistency of answers is important. When asked for the date of
marriage, you cannot say one date and your spouse says another. Say for example, you
are driving up to the USA. At the border, you present your passsport, your "wife"
presents hers with the K-1 visa on it. The INS person has to take her into the
building to do some questions and paperwork.
(S)he asks her who is the gent with her in the car. She slips and says it is her
husband. That could turn out to be messy. You will end up having to prove that you
have no civil record of marriage in Mexico. Proving you have a civil record is
easy; proving you do not have it is usually not so.
United
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the
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another
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In INS interviews, consistency of answers is important. When asked for the date of
marriage, you cannot say one date and your spouse says another. Say for example, you
are driving up to the USA. At the border, you present your passsport, your "wife"
presents hers with the K-1 visa on it. The INS person has to take her into the
building to do some questions and paperwork.
(S)he asks her who is the gent with her in the car. She slips and says it is her
husband. That could turn out to be messy. You will end up having to prove that you
have no civil record of marriage in Mexico. Proving you have a civil record is
easy; proving you do not have it is usually not so.
Aug 1st 2001, 12:03 am
#3
Guest
Posts: n/a
Gabriela and I had a church wedding in Mexico, and we did just fine with the
interview, and are having the legal ceremony on Saturday. I think the main thing is
to keep clear in your minds your "date" so no one messes up...you don't want the INS
to get confused about that. Actually, it was interesting, because at our POE, the
Immigration officer casually asked us "When did you get married?" It was a bit of a
surprise, and I answered quickly that "We aren't married, she's coming TO get
married." It seemed like a simple oversight on his part, but seeing he was holding
her passport with the visa in it, I thought it could be a trick question...can never
be too paranoid, eh? The other thought would be that if you exchange rings at the
first ceremony, to have her not wear it at entry...not the subtle message you would
want to convey.
There has been some debate over the risk of going this way, but I really don't see a
problem unless you offer too much information or get confused if you are questioned.
Good luck!
Dave
"Adrian Vega" <[email protected]>
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interview, and are having the legal ceremony on Saturday. I think the main thing is
to keep clear in your minds your "date" so no one messes up...you don't want the INS
to get confused about that. Actually, it was interesting, because at our POE, the
Immigration officer casually asked us "When did you get married?" It was a bit of a
surprise, and I answered quickly that "We aren't married, she's coming TO get
married." It seemed like a simple oversight on his part, but seeing he was holding
her passport with the visa in it, I thought it could be a trick question...can never
be too paranoid, eh? The other thought would be that if you exchange rings at the
first ceremony, to have her not wear it at entry...not the subtle message you would
want to convey.
There has been some debate over the risk of going this way, but I really don't see a
problem unless you offer too much information or get confused if you are questioned.
Good luck!
Dave
"Adrian Vega" <[email protected]>
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Aug 1st 2001, 12:34 am
#4
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Well done, Dave !! This is the kind of talent they want in spy college, two
thumb-screws and you give the right answer ! <<snip>>
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You are good !!
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Want to offer more than what is asked is never a good policy, especially when it
comes to dealing with the INS/Customs Agents. I am sure that the family back in
Mexico would like to believe the two are married in their eyes and the eyes of
the church.
<<snip>>
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Well done, Dave !! This is the kind of talent they want in spy college, two
thumb-screws and you give the right answer ! <<snip>>
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You are good !!
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Want to offer more than what is asked is never a good policy, especially when it
comes to dealing with the INS/Customs Agents. I am sure that the family back in
Mexico would like to believe the two are married in their eyes and the eyes of
the church.
Aug 2nd 2001, 1:27 pm
#5
Guest
Posts: n/a
Mr. Vega,
I think the answer you sought was given, but to add to the information. My
wife and I had a 'ceremony' in my wife's home country. It was for family and
friends. Marriage is the single biggest rite of passage that is common to
all cultures. That the INS does not recognize the fact and prevents such
cermonies is an indicator of how out of step the agency is with society. In
Sofia, Bulgaria, the only marriage that is 'bona fide' is the one that takes
place in what would be city hall in Sofia. We had our 'bona fide' marriage
here in the States one month later last year in city hall. In May this year,
when we went for our adjustment of status interview, my wife mentioned that
we had a ceremony in Sofia because I was confused as to our 'marriage date'
(males and anniversary dates are genetically disconnected). It was a
mistake. First, we violated one of the cardinal rules employed when dealing
with a governmental agency (say not more than asked). Second, we gave cause
to delay approval in an agency with a culture of suspicion which causes it
to paint all particpants with a broad brush (guilty until proven innocent).
The adjustment officer initiated 'research' into whether we had violated the
conditions of our K-1 Visa application. Of course we hadn't, but the agent
was not concerned with our protests. It's been three months and still no
word on our application for status adjustment, which is on their computer
database as 'pending' as of the first of July. I've sent a letter to the
adjudications officer, but have not heard from her yet. If I were to plan
and carry out a ceremony, I would make sure it is not in any way registered
with the government (either city, state or national). In some countries, a
church ceremony is the legal ceremony. I would find out if this is the case
for my fiance's country. And I wouldn't sign any certificate if I did have
have a ceremony before bringing my fiance to the States. And by all means, I
would not mention that I had a ceremony prior to coming to the States during
the adjustment of status interview. It is a small omission, but it will save
time and anxiety. If I were uncomfortable with the omission, then I would
not have any ceremony prior to bringing my fiance to the States. The above
information is not in any way to be construed as leagl counsel. I am not a
lawyer. I am a citizen relating my own experience and what I would do in the
situation in question. If you can afford an attorney, you will be given the
similar advice.
George and Miglena
Adrian Vega wrote:
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I think the answer you sought was given, but to add to the information. My
wife and I had a 'ceremony' in my wife's home country. It was for family and
friends. Marriage is the single biggest rite of passage that is common to
all cultures. That the INS does not recognize the fact and prevents such
cermonies is an indicator of how out of step the agency is with society. In
Sofia, Bulgaria, the only marriage that is 'bona fide' is the one that takes
place in what would be city hall in Sofia. We had our 'bona fide' marriage
here in the States one month later last year in city hall. In May this year,
when we went for our adjustment of status interview, my wife mentioned that
we had a ceremony in Sofia because I was confused as to our 'marriage date'
(males and anniversary dates are genetically disconnected). It was a
mistake. First, we violated one of the cardinal rules employed when dealing
with a governmental agency (say not more than asked). Second, we gave cause
to delay approval in an agency with a culture of suspicion which causes it
to paint all particpants with a broad brush (guilty until proven innocent).
The adjustment officer initiated 'research' into whether we had violated the
conditions of our K-1 Visa application. Of course we hadn't, but the agent
was not concerned with our protests. It's been three months and still no
word on our application for status adjustment, which is on their computer
database as 'pending' as of the first of July. I've sent a letter to the
adjudications officer, but have not heard from her yet. If I were to plan
and carry out a ceremony, I would make sure it is not in any way registered
with the government (either city, state or national). In some countries, a
church ceremony is the legal ceremony. I would find out if this is the case
for my fiance's country. And I wouldn't sign any certificate if I did have
have a ceremony before bringing my fiance to the States. And by all means, I
would not mention that I had a ceremony prior to coming to the States during
the adjustment of status interview. It is a small omission, but it will save
time and anxiety. If I were uncomfortable with the omission, then I would
not have any ceremony prior to bringing my fiance to the States. The above
information is not in any way to be construed as leagl counsel. I am not a
lawyer. I am a citizen relating my own experience and what I would do in the
situation in question. If you can afford an attorney, you will be given the
similar advice.
George and Miglena
Adrian Vega wrote:
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Aug 2nd 2001, 3:36 pm
#6
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 112
Dave,
Deceitful entry to the US on a K-1 visa when you are already married in another country constitutes Fraud. You even beat the system at the POE. Great. However, it is your private affair, keep it under your hat.
I think you are providing a disservice to future K-1 applicants by openly spreading information like these. Such disclosure gives the INS and the State Department enough justification to necessitate additional rules and requirements to an otherwise fairly simple and quick process to enter the US legally.
ralph
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave
[B]Gabriela and I had a church wedding in Mexico, and we did just fine with the
interview, and are having the legal ceremony on Saturday. I think the main thing is
to keep clear in your minds your "date" so no one messes up...you don't want the INS
to get confused about that. Actually, it was interesting, because at our POE, the
Immigration officer casually asked us "When did you get married?" It was a bit of a
surprise, and I answered quickly that "We aren't married, she's coming TO get
married." It seemed like a simple oversight on his part, but seeing he was holding
her passport with the visa in it, I thought it could be a trick question...can never
be too paranoid, eh? The other thought would be that if you exchange rings at the
first ceremony, to have her not wear it at entry...not the subtle message you would
want to convey.
There has been some debate over the risk of going this way, but I really don't see a
problem unless you offer too much information or get confused if you are questioned.
Good luck!
Dave
Deceitful entry to the US on a K-1 visa when you are already married in another country constitutes Fraud. You even beat the system at the POE. Great. However, it is your private affair, keep it under your hat.
I think you are providing a disservice to future K-1 applicants by openly spreading information like these. Such disclosure gives the INS and the State Department enough justification to necessitate additional rules and requirements to an otherwise fairly simple and quick process to enter the US legally.
ralph
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave
[B]Gabriela and I had a church wedding in Mexico, and we did just fine with the
interview, and are having the legal ceremony on Saturday. I think the main thing is
to keep clear in your minds your "date" so no one messes up...you don't want the INS
to get confused about that. Actually, it was interesting, because at our POE, the
Immigration officer casually asked us "When did you get married?" It was a bit of a
surprise, and I answered quickly that "We aren't married, she's coming TO get
married." It seemed like a simple oversight on his part, but seeing he was holding
her passport with the visa in it, I thought it could be a trick question...can never
be too paranoid, eh? The other thought would be that if you exchange rings at the
first ceremony, to have her not wear it at entry...not the subtle message you would
want to convey.
There has been some debate over the risk of going this way, but I really don't see a
problem unless you offer too much information or get confused if you are questioned.
Good luck!
Dave
Aug 2nd 2001, 8:24 pm
#7
Member
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 14,049
Ralph,
I think you're going a bit overboard here, unless a church ceremony in and of itself constitutes a legal marriage in Mexico.
My wife and I had a religious wedding ceremony in her country prior to her coming to the US on a K-1 visa. It was not a "[d]eceitful entry" and it did not constitute fraud, because a religious wedding ceremony did not constitute a legal marriage in that country.
Many, many people do exactly the same thing, for exactly the same reason. There is nothing illegal or fraudulent about it.
The reason for not mentioning such an event to the INS is not to deceive. The reason is that INS agents are trained in US immigration laws, policies, and procedures. They are not trained in the family law of 200+- other countries around the world. They have no idea what constitutes a legal marriage in Bugastan or Omnisia. Therefore, once they hear the words "wedding" or "marriage", they are required to determine if the activity constituted a legal marriage in the jurisdiction where it took place.
Regards, JEff
I think you're going a bit overboard here, unless a church ceremony in and of itself constitutes a legal marriage in Mexico.
My wife and I had a religious wedding ceremony in her country prior to her coming to the US on a K-1 visa. It was not a "[d]eceitful entry" and it did not constitute fraud, because a religious wedding ceremony did not constitute a legal marriage in that country.
Many, many people do exactly the same thing, for exactly the same reason. There is nothing illegal or fraudulent about it.
The reason for not mentioning such an event to the INS is not to deceive. The reason is that INS agents are trained in US immigration laws, policies, and procedures. They are not trained in the family law of 200+- other countries around the world. They have no idea what constitutes a legal marriage in Bugastan or Omnisia. Therefore, once they hear the words "wedding" or "marriage", they are required to determine if the activity constituted a legal marriage in the jurisdiction where it took place.
Regards, JEff
Originally posted by ralph
Dave,
Deceitful entry to the US on a K-1 visa when you are already married in another country constitutes Fraud. You even beat the system at the POE. Great. However, it is your private affair, keep it under your hat.
I think you are providing a disservice to future K-1 applicants by openly spreading information like these. Such disclosure gives the INS and the State Department enough justification to necessitate additional rules and requirements to an otherwise fairly simple and quick process to enter the US legally.
ralph
Dave,
Deceitful entry to the US on a K-1 visa when you are already married in another country constitutes Fraud. You even beat the system at the POE. Great. However, it is your private affair, keep it under your hat.
I think you are providing a disservice to future K-1 applicants by openly spreading information like these. Such disclosure gives the INS and the State Department enough justification to necessitate additional rules and requirements to an otherwise fairly simple and quick process to enter the US legally.
ralph
Aug 2nd 2001, 9:07 pm
#8
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 112
Apologies to Dave. I stand corrected.
thanks,
ralph
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeffreyhy
[B]Ralph,
I think you're going a bit overboard here, unless a church ceremony in and of itself constitutes a legal marriage in Mexico.
My wife and I had a religious wedding ceremony in her country prior to her coming to the US on a K-1 visa. It was not a "[d]eceitful entry" and it did not constitute fraud, because a religious wedding ceremony did not constitute a legal marriage in that country.
Many, many people do exactly the same thing, for exactly the same reason. There is nothing illegal or fraudulent about it.
The reason for not mentioning such an event to the INS is not to deceive. The reason is that INS agents are trained in US immigration laws, policies, and procedures. They are not trained in the family law of 200+- other countries around the world. They have no idea what constitutes a legal marriage in Bugastan or Omnisia. Therefore, once they hear the words "wedding" or "marriage", they are required to determine if the activity constituted a legal marriage in the jurisdiction where it took place.
Regards, JEff
thanks,
ralph
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jeffreyhy
[B]Ralph,
I think you're going a bit overboard here, unless a church ceremony in and of itself constitutes a legal marriage in Mexico.
My wife and I had a religious wedding ceremony in her country prior to her coming to the US on a K-1 visa. It was not a "[d]eceitful entry" and it did not constitute fraud, because a religious wedding ceremony did not constitute a legal marriage in that country.
Many, many people do exactly the same thing, for exactly the same reason. There is nothing illegal or fraudulent about it.
The reason for not mentioning such an event to the INS is not to deceive. The reason is that INS agents are trained in US immigration laws, policies, and procedures. They are not trained in the family law of 200+- other countries around the world. They have no idea what constitutes a legal marriage in Bugastan or Omnisia. Therefore, once they hear the words "wedding" or "marriage", they are required to determine if the activity constituted a legal marriage in the jurisdiction where it took place.
Regards, JEff
Aug 2nd 2001, 11:27 pm
#9
Guest
Posts: n/a
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INS does not prevent any such ceremony. They do not want such ceremonies be legally
certified in the local jurisdiction as "marriage" or "wedding". As adjudicating
officers do not know what had happened, any suggestion of such conflicts with the
intent of the K-1 petition raises their guard and they begin to investigate.
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It takes courage to confess that you goofed so that others may sidestep this pitfall.
Well Done, and Thank you.
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This is so important throughout your life. When government agents are given more
than what they asked for, they are confused and the best course of action would then
be to delay the proceedings until such time that any decision they make is
collective. Since there are no gains to be made by taking the risk and being
innovative or more efficient ( you are not going to a competing shop, anyway ) this
is the only course to take.
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INS does not prevent any such ceremony. They do not want such ceremonies be legally
certified in the local jurisdiction as "marriage" or "wedding". As adjudicating
officers do not know what had happened, any suggestion of such conflicts with the
intent of the K-1 petition raises their guard and they begin to investigate.
>
>
>
>
>
It takes courage to confess that you goofed so that others may sidestep this pitfall.
Well Done, and Thank you.
>
>
This is so important throughout your life. When government agents are given more
than what they asked for, they are confused and the best course of action would then
be to delay the proceedings until such time that any decision they make is
collective. Since there are no gains to be made by taking the risk and being
innovative or more efficient ( you are not going to a competing shop, anyway ) this
is the only course to take.
Aug 3rd 2001, 9:34 pm
#10
Guest
Posts: n/a
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My reply:
Indeed, I overstated the reality. But the pressure not to make a mistake, I
think, inhibits many from having such ceremonies. As another poster stated,
there are too many other traditions and governmental ways to do things that
the average INS agent must act within what they know. And you're correct, any
deviation from their expectations makes them suspicious.
George
(clip)
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My reply:
Indeed, I overstated the reality. But the pressure not to make a mistake, I
think, inhibits many from having such ceremonies. As another poster stated,
there are too many other traditions and governmental ways to do things that
the average INS agent must act within what they know. And you're correct, any
deviation from their expectations makes them suspicious.
George
(clip)
