cindyabs

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/10/in...i=5059&partner

alex_lg

Hi Cinday,
How are you? Good hearing from you on this NG again. I ended up filing AOS for my wife instead of CP cuz as of 8/11, San Jose was processing cases filed on 4/1. But when I checked the CIS update, the posting on 9/7 is still stuck at 4/1! I hope it's not due to the whole country changing their addr to file here.

Anyway, my 2 cents on the Dane situation is although on paper it sounds more absurd and inconvenient than U.S. immigration, in practice U.S. immigration often is still more harsh on a couple. That bridge they have to cross is only 10 miles wide even though two countries apart! Most Americans drive longer distance than this to get to work each day.

Given the sheer large size of the U.S., and it's long long distance from EU, Asia,..., when the foreign spouses are kept away awaiting for immigration paper to the U.S., we are often talking about couples seeing each other for only a few times a year at most. In these Danish couples case, they see their spouse everyday and I believe between Denmark and Sweden you don't even have to clear custom or immigration to go back and forth. The entire western Europe (except UK I think) has become like one big country now and the border is a thing of the past.

My wife and I used to live in 2 different countries. It's inconvenient but we were hardly heart broken because we were only minutes drive on other side of the Canadian border! The inconvenience came from the Canadian border is a real border, not like those in EU, and the U.S. border guys are one of the biggest and most sarcastic jerks on earth even to its own citizens!

HunterGreen

No offense, but are you looney? Not being able to live in YOUR OWN COUNTRY because you are married to a foreigner is 'not that bad' because it's only a 10 mile drive?

That's a choice you and your wife made, but do you really believe that this is a desirable situation to be in for a mixed couple? I can't blame them for not chosing to live apart - especially not because of a law that is discriminating against their own!

Remember, this seperation is different from the waiting for a K1, K3 or waiver to come through. It is for good. If they ever want to live together, for one of them it is impossible to live in their own birth country where they spent all of their life until they fell in love with a foreigner.
This particular couple was lucky because Sweden is close, allows easy residency and therefor can make use of the EU's residency laws. Therefor she was able to keep her job and comply with the other rules (make 50,000 a year, own housing etc).

It won't be too long before The Netherlands have similar laws. Even though I am well over the minimum age, after I move to the US it will be impossible for me to ever return to the NL to live, unless I want to leave my husband behind, and even then they might be reluctant to let me back in because then I can make use of reunification laws that are in place. So they might bar me from my own country!
These laws still need to be discussed by the goverment but the outlook is pretty bleak. Nobody here seems to care, except for a few people who also have non-EU citizen partners. Everybody else is just happy we are keeping the muslems out! No amount of telling them that muslem does not equal terrorist or lowlife is helping. As you can see I am pretty passionate (and pissed off) about this.

I believe the US immigration system, even though it is not fun and for some even painful, is a fair one. Nothing is perfect, but at least in general it's a fair system. People are kept out of the US based on FACTS (crime records etc) and not because of weird reasons like being scared of too many foreigners coming in. Yes it got stricter but everybody still gets evaluated case by case.

Like Cindy said - it could be worse. MUCH worse.

Elaine

alex_lg

That's your assumption. In fact, I relocated my wife from her home country to Canada where visa was easier to get than the U.S. and moved myself close to the Canadian border in order to see her regularly because of the brain dead U.S. immigration.

Did I ever say that it's desirable?

Did I say they were doing the wrong thing?

A H-1B visa worker's spouse (someone 100% not part of the system) is entitled to declare dual intent and almost guaranteed an H-4 visa. However, if a Green card holder (someone on it's way to become a U.S. citizen) marries a foreigner, this spouse is restrictly declined a non-immigrant visa until the Green Card holder becomes a citizen to immigrate this spouse. Using one Green Card to sponsor another is a joke becuase it takes 5-6 years. Many Green card holder's marriage is ruined by Uncle Sam because they can rarely see each other for years after years. Now at a time when the backlog is so huge, Uncle Sam is still giving away green card lottery, again to someone 100% foreign, to make the backlog worse. I don't know what's your ref point when you declare U.S. immigration is fair in general.

Obviously as a member of EU, you didn't take into account that for people from the 3rd world country, their admission to this country is almost an exception instead of the norm. The U.S. immigration law mandates a foreigner petitioning to visit the U.S. is presumed an intending immigrant and thus the non-immigrant visa must be declined unless the petitioner proves it otherwise. What FACTS is Uncle Sam operating on? Guilty till proven innocent is the fact. This is a situation people from countries that have VWP with the U.S. rarely think about.

I did not consider the Danish gov doing the right thing or criticise these couples doing the wrong thing. Whether a person can't live in his/her own country but still get to see and live with their spouse daily in a neighboring country enjoying the same high standard of living is worse than some Americans have to endure long separation with their spouses or many Green Card holders' marriages are simply ruiled by Uncle Sam is entirely up to a reader's value and life experience.

Our life exp creates different filter for each of us.
I respect your filter to consider the Danish case to be worse while I maintain mine to see the U.S. situation more inhumane.

Alex

ian-mstm

It's important to remember that the US government is *not* obligated in any way, shape or form to perform *any* services for foreigners! It is a privilege - a courtesy, even - for the US to give anyone a visa. The onus must be on the foreigner to prove intent. The process is designed to screen potential immigrants. It's a time consuming process to be sure, but let's not kid ourselves here... every person entering the US - regardless of their stated intent - is a potential immigrant and should, IMHO, be considered suspect until cleared. Just my $0.02 worth.

Ian

alex_lg

Thank you for pointing it out. I certainly do not disagree with the spirit of the law. In practice since the U.S. consular staff doesn't have a crystal ball to predict what each of the hundreds of visa petitioners each day would do in the future, and it's equally difficult for the petitioner to prove their future, the visa process in a 3rd country is basically just 99% blanket denial. Anyway, the point I was trying to dispel is the notion that "People are kept out of the US based on FACTS (crime records etc)".

Alex

HunterGreen

Still seems like your choice to me.

First, I don't believe every green card holder wants to be a US citizen. Second, how is this different from immigration laws in European countries? Third, is this even true? Do you have proof that NO spouse of a green card holder was EVER allowed into the US for a visit?
Fourth, they can sponsor their spouse as a green card holder, only the wait is longer than for a citizen.

Why is Uncle Sam ruining anything? It is their choice where they live. You want to live in the US, there's a long wait.

Because in US immigration each case is looked at seperately. You're from certain countries trying to get into the NL, your SOL. Just because you're from that country. No questions asked.

Actually, I have taken a lot of things into account. Just because I didn't write about them in my post, doesn't mean I'm only considering my own starting point. I didn't bring it up however, because we were talking about married couples, with one of them being a citizen of the country they wish to reside in. You are comparing apples to oranges now.

The facts the petitioner provides maybe? You are also contradicting yourself here ('this spouse is restrictly declined a non-immigrant visa'). If the petitioner provides proof they will leave again, they will be allowed into the US for a visit.

And again, how is this different from people from those countries wanting to visit EU countries? Do you even know they wouldn't get into the EU either unless they had dang good proof they'd leave again? Same question: How is this a problem solely of the US goverment? I can understand you have a problem with it, but you're blaming the US while this is in fact common practice in a lot of countries around the world.

Now THAT is an assumption. You have no way of knowing what I think about and how often. But again, apples and oranges. I thought we were talking about married couples, one of them being a citizen of the country they wish to reside in.

Elaine

HunterGreen

You posted while I was replying. Again, apples and oranges: you start talking about non-immigrant visas, while I was of the assumption we were discussing married couples, one of them being a US citizen. That's the context of my point there. It cannot be applied to other situations.

Elaine

HunterGreen

A little OT: it's not my habit to announce my absence from a message board, but I'm making an exception now...
My computer is being a real pain in the rear end (it takes a few minutes to open a topic, no kidding) and I'm shutting it off and taking it in for repair (again ).
I'm very rarely in the mood for a real discussion, but I was now, just for fun . Alex, I really do see where you're coming from. Eventually we'd have to have agreed to disagree... unfortunately I'm going to do that at this early point. My apologies.

Take care,
Elaine

alex_lg

Sure it’s our choice that my wife used to live in Canada and I lived near Canada on the U.S. side. However, our action was the best choice we could make at the time due to a brain dead system that took forever to produce something much like those Danish couples choose to live in Sweden and commute to Denmark. It IS their CHOICE but it is their best choice as the consequence of an absurd law that no one on this thread agrees with.

Other than a dual intent visa like H-1B which I already covered earlier, let’s not kid ourselves a Green Card holder’s spouse from a non-VWP country can provide enough evidence to convince the U.S. consulate he/she would leave and obtain a non-immigrant visa. I don’t think I need to prove a well known reality.

Sure it is apple and orange between immigration and non-immigration laws, between citizens of a country and their “Green Card� holders. But says who a gov is obligated to admit a foreigner just because he/she marries a citizen of that country if not for humanitarian reason? Now if we are going to have a show of inhumanity, we might just look at the big picture of apple, orange, etc. It’s like when it comes to Nazi Germany, I don’t limit myself to the short period of time when the Nazi reformed the German economy out of the rubbles of WWI w/o considering what they did the rest of time.

No one, at least the 4 posted here, is arguing the Danish law is not absurd and inhumane. All I’m trying to say is “what is worse� is a highly subjective matter. You have your perceptive filter and I have mine.

Alex