Zero hour contracts.
 

I have been reading several articles recently on zero hour contracts for workers. The latest one involves workers at a Hovis bakery in Wigan.
I believe a few Canadian companies are using these contracts but not as widespread as in the UK.
Do we think these zero hour contracts are good? How do BE readers feel about these types of contracts and how do they affect employees who have no idea of how many hours they will get or when in fact they will work next.
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...hour-contracts

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Such contracts are normal in the computer business in Canada. I would think they're usual in the fast food and retail sectors too. They're an issue in the UK because there's a history there of employer responsibility. There's no such responsibility incumbent on employers here; people can be fired this week, rehired next and fired again the week after so they effective work under zero hour contracts all the time (excepting government employees, of course).

That fuss is about employers trying to drag conditions down to those that pertain in the colonies. We're already there.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

I doubt that such contracts are "normal" or "usual" in any sector of the economy here.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Well, I've worked under such an arrangement since 1986 and have "employed" maybe a hundred people that way, so I think I can say it's not unheard of. What sort of commitment do you think McDonalds or Tim Hortons makes to its part-time staff in Canada? How about Wal-Mart?

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

I know when I worked for McD's we had contracts with the number of hours we would work.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

But which country was that in?

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Wasn't this a reaction to changes in UK law that required giving fat benefits to anyone with a contract over X number of hours?

No-one in their right mind is going to sign a 'zero hour' contract if they really expect to get zero hours of work (unless it triggers some extra welfare benefits). It may not guarantee 20 hours, or whatever you actually want to work, but, if you don't get those hours, you'll find another job.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Canada.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

McDonalds in Canada gave you a contract stipulating that you would be paid for a fixed number of hours per week? How many hours?

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

When I worked in it I did 5 night shifts set Sunday night to Thursday night. Friday/Saturday off. It was only different when I started as training doesn't usually occur during night shifts.

There are various other positions outside of normal "crew" jobs. Maintenance for example tend to be contracted to work nights for obvious reasons.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

I beg to differ. Hamilton Health Sciences, for instance, regularly post 0.01 hour vacancies as do the City of Hamilton.

Many jobs in this area are posted as 0 or 0.01 hours.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Well the first one is listed as casual so it would seem reasonable that it wasn't set hours. Plus it's 1 opening.

The 2nd one sounds like an initial fishing expedition and they don't have the details yet. It doesn't even list how many positions may or may not be available.

I'm not convinced it's a "normal" thing though. I'm struggling to think of anyone I know who has one of these contracts. Does anyone here have family or friends on such contracts? If so, have you not given them a shake yet?

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Both HHS and the City of Hamilton regularly post 0.01 positions, as do other companies in this area. You would be suprised!

I have a 0.01 position as a relief receptionist for CHCH on an on-call basis but I don't really count it as a job, lol.

I think you have to bear in mind that people take the 0.01 hours jobs in the hope that it will turn into either a proper part time or hopefully full time position - or give them an 'in' to the company which will enable them to apply for internal positions.

When you don't have a job, any port in a storm will do for the time being.

;)

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Looking through the HHS site at the moment. More than half the listed jobs are Full time. Of the 30 or so listed under "Part Time" some have specified hours and some have this 0 or 0.01 placeholder. On further inspection some of job details do mention words to the effect of "whenever and wherever required". Others say 0.01 but then have wording like "rotating shifts" or "choice of 2 shifts each day" which suggests there is some method in the background. Still others say "Monday-Saturday - days" which seems rather explicit.

There is also a listing that says "1 position" and then at the bottom says "There are 4 part time positions" with the job ID numbers. Then further on another listing that is a duplicate with a different ID that correctly mentions there are 4 positions. I think HHS needs a new data entry clerk :D

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Indeed. I know from experience that your local McD's will likely be crying out for people to work in it and they'll not give you an hour a week either ;)

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Good for companies, not so good for workers or society. We have to question whether we want a dog-eat-dog world like the USA where citizens are duped into working three jobs to support a near poverty lifestyle, but proud not to have to rely on the government (saw that on Michael Moore). IMHO.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Indeed they may, but as I am hearing impaired and have to wear double hearing aids it is a little difficult for me to work in a noisy environment such as Mickey D's, unfortunately.

:o

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

I don't think it will be long before fast food chains like MD or BK will be fully automated (no staff). We all know that the "kitchen" is really just a glorified production line, and now that they are introducing self-order kiosks the service staff are becoming less of a necessity too. Although it could be done tomorrow, I give it about ten years before McD's is just a giant eat-in vending machine.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

I wonder if these types of contracts will become more utilized in all sectors if allowable.
How do people working on this type of contract get a mortgage, vehicle loan or line of credit if no guaranteed income or hours?
Employers in some areas do not want to hire full time employees due to having to pay benefits if in a unionized workplace.
Are we now facing a situation where some are desperate for jobs that they have no option but to apply for jobs like these.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Yes. Got it in one.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

For low paid jobs it's bad news and I wouldn't knowingly or willingly spend money somewhere that employed people on those unequal terms. That said where I work some staff are on contracts with zero minimum hours. However, these are positions that are well paid and for people who are specialists where the workload to use their specialism isn't reliable enough. They quite often have other business interests and I think the agreement isn't on exclusive terms ie they could sign a similar contract with someone else.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Absolutely.

My son has no minimum hours on his contract - the only way he was able to secure a mortgage was by working for 4 weeks taking every shift that he could and showing more than 35 hours a week and then getting a letter from his employer that he was employed on a permanent basis. This was accepted by the mortgagee as 'working full time hours' but it was touch and go for a while as to whether they would accept it.

A local company I know of (large corporation) don't hire any full time office staff - all their workers are on part time contracts (and most work 2 jobs at the same place) which gets around the need to pay benefits.

I'm an administrator with more than 30 years experience, I have friends (cradles) who are administrators with similar Canadian experience and we are all finding it extremely difficult to secure a job or even get to the interview stage. When you have a mortgage to pay you have to accept whatever you can get - so yes, you end up applying for jobs that have 0 hours in the hope that it will lead to something better. It's also better to have a current job on your resume rather than show yourself as being unemployed.

It's not fun out there in unemployment land.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

But did you have a contract saying you would be paid for 40 hours? I suspect not though it's somewhat beside the point. The purpose of zero hour contracts in the UK is to deny employees status under employment legislation. There's little such legislation here and so no status to be denied.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

With interest rates so low at the moment, it's a great time to lay off workers and install machines.

There's at least one machine in development which will create burgers from scratch to your specifications, for not that much more than McDonalds' charge. So it won't be too long before there'll be no low-paid McDonalds' jobs for people to complain about.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

'tis true. And it's going to be a problem for the unskilled segment of the workforce.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

I've never had a job that had a contract since most jobs in the min wage to 14/hr range don't do contracts, but even when full-time, I have never had a employer guarantee hours anywhere I have worked.

I've never had an employer cut hours, but they certainly never guaranteed an X amount of hours. Seems silly for an employer to lock themselves into such an agreement.

Wal-Mart which was mentioned earlier, typically wont drop their employees below 16-20 hours a week if part-time as far as I know, I have a few friends at different stores who report the same.

When I had an interview at Air Canada in January to load planes, the pretty much classify all airports jobs now as part-time, and their range was you could get 0 to 40 hours a week, but every week would be different depending on company needs.

I know some of the health authorities in the area hire mostly casual in some job functions and don't guarantee any kind of hours.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

People have been saying that for decades.

Even when you have a machine doing something you at least some people to operate and maintain it. And even if they started "rolling it out" tomorrow it would be more decades before it was complete. You'd also have to redesign and heavily modify/rebuild every location. Also, who cleans the place or tidies up after some crowd of yahoos have been through and half wrecked the place? The robot servant? How 1950s.

There is also the question of whether you'd go to a McDonalds that had no people in it. It sounds like an obvious "haha of course, who wouldn't want to avoid some spotty teen with seemingly no verbal skills" but that would be an easy flippant way to think about it.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

There is an A/W near me that has self ordering machines, you can place your order, and pay without ever talking to a human.

Nobody ever uses them, every-time I go in, everyone is waiting in line.

Heck Wal-Mart the cheapest company on the planet, even started to remove automated check out in some stores.

Sometimes you need people.

Oddly people have no issue check in for a flight online or at a machine at an airport, but stores seem to struggle to get customers to use automated check outs.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

They used to say that about ATM's.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

I think it is about 2 extremes.

1. Employers lost the decision making process in selecting/promoting employees as the govt made so much legislation to protect employees and specific groups that it left employers wide open to abuse i.e. parents were given extra rights over childless people and given more flexible hours - and the childless had to pick up the extra work and hours. Certain % of your employees must be disabled and ethnic minority etc etc. No longer can the best be selected or promoted by the employer - legislation and those with a "sense of entitlement" dictate who the employer must have/promote.

2. Employers regained the right to decide who did or did not work for them and the hours they would work by creating 0 hours contracts removing nearly all rights.

I think 0 hours contracts show that the more you regulate and legislate to protect certain groups of people the more you will find you make them unemployable or employers find a way around all legislation - difficult to find a way around just some. It's all about balance, there should be a level of protection for both employer and employee.

The unions really messed it up for everyone. They decided they represented everyone including freelancers/contractors such as myself who earned a premium for this type of work. They campaigned for extra rights for all temporary/freelance/contract workers including equal pay and rights. The freelancers/contractors told them to sod off, we don't want equal pay and rights and we want to keep our premium and right to decide where we put our pension money etc. The Unions got their way as it was a Labour gov at the time and overnight temporary workers to keep their premium rate over permanent workers were then put on 0 hours contracts to compensate. Those employees who got the extra protection from the legislation lost the premium rate. Those sensible freelancers/contractors used a corporate set up (Ltd Co) to avoid the legislation - and had they not done that UK would lose its flexible workforce that provides enormous economic benefits for both individual and country. What did the unions achieve - a pay cut and/or loss of employee rights to people who were not even a member of the union. They still campaign to bring all freelancers/contractors under the same legislation though.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

You're assuming that was an unintended consequence, not a goal.

It's not as though the union wants contract workers taking the place of union members. Cutting the pay and conditions of contract workers is a success, from their viewpoint.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Not sure if it was the 1950s or 60s, but they had this outlandish notion that we would be able to wear a videophone and or watch tv on our wristwatch! Some even suggested that it would be possible for cars to drive without a driver. So far fetched back then.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

It was intended to finish contracting and force us into taking permanent or temporary work and then hopefully become members of the unions. Both the Labour Party and the Unions made it clear how much they dislike contractors and between them agreed special taxation rules (google IR35) and employment legislation to make it difficult to be a contractor. Both spectacularly backfired and created 0 hours contracts on their own members and contractors avoided it. Contracting is a way of life, and is chosen by those who wish to do it and know the risks. Perm/temp is for those not wanting the risk and I don't think 0 hours should exist there unless a premium is paid above normal rate. If the unions had not attacked contracting 0 hours would not exist.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

I made it all the way through that paragraph!

It's extremely misleading as the purpose of being a contractor and to have a corporate set up is to cheat the tax man. Contractors are obvious enemies of regular workers as they can provide services to employers at a lower cost than a worker, not because they're better or work harder, but due to not paying their fair share of income taxes.

There was once an argument that the contractor worked short-term for many employers and was therefore in a different position than a worker. I don't think that holds any more, contractors now stay in one position for years on end, they represent casualisation of the labour force and are, in general terms, a bad thing, as well as typically being personnally disreputable.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Only because of tax deferrals. Having cheated in one year by pushing the tax bill into the next, the contractor is obliged to keep doing it until he or she is dead. There's no nobility there.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

Where did I cheat the taxman?- I have nearly 30 years worth of audited accounts agreed with HMRC and could show tax being paid at the same rate as anyone on a similar income.

If you want to accuse people of criminal activity such as tax evasion I suggest you back it up with hard evidence not hearsay. Resorting to name calling such as personally disreputable seems to be a trait of people on this board when they run out of reasonable argument.

My contracts varied in length from 1 day to 9 months over nearly 30 years so there goes your other argument. I think you listen to to many stories from the left wing spin and have yourself been very misleading.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

No need to get so defensive of behalf of a whole sector. I'm a contractor. My tax affairs are, um... interesting, and I am definitely personally disreputable.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

I have never deferred any tax from one year to the next and how would you know if I did. I think you refer to bank bonuses which is nothing to do with contractors. Deferring tax to the next year means it is still paid, only in rare years when tax drops is there any benefit.

You have no idea of my tax position or work history but have made criminal allegations in your posts. My accounts are made public at Companies House so have hidden absolutely nothing.

You might refer to the few contractors but not the majority.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

I too am a contractor and a pimp. I've been a contractor since 1986 this time around and have worked with other contractors in several countries and all but seven US States. I routinely talk people out of proper jobs and into contracts, what sells is the tax breaks; the ability to write off cars, houses, bar bills and so on. I sell the services of contractors, what sells is lower cost, primarily through not paying for healthcare and disposibility. Contracting, at least in the computer business, is disreputable as it's whole purpose is to subvert proper employees and because it only works through exploitation of tax avoidance (many contractors also get into tax evasion but this isn't central to the immorality of the trade).

I have 7 years worth of auditted nonsense (there's no need to keep more in this jurisdiction unless you want to have a storage facility for some other reason and are looking for an excuse to write it off).

I can, of course, see the contracting has been good for idontlikestrikers, but that's at the expense of society, it's not something of which one should be proud. It seems to me that if you advocate a controversial position, "gays shouldn't marry", "contractors are decent people", "smoking on passenger trains is acceptable" then you should expect to be criticised for that. Obviously there will be some blurring between attacking the man and the ball but idontlikestrikers has chosen a life he knows to be a bit dodgy. One would expect the same if one were a vendor of Video Lottery Terminals or Indian smokes.

Re: Zero hour contracts.
 

If you are not achieving a tax advantage by contracting and you can obtain legitimate working papers for the places where you contract; why do you not take a proper job?