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Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11945558
Well we were all thinking it....*weren't we?* Australia's foreign minister has said the US is to blame for the release of thousands of diplomatic cables on Wikileaks, not its Australian founder, Julian Assange. Kevin Rudd said the release raised questions about US security. Mr Rudd said he did not "give a damn" about criticism of him in the cables. Mr Assange, arrested in the UK over sex crime allegations in Sweden, has accused the Australian government of "disgraceful pandering" to the US. Prime Minister Julia Gillard had earlier called Mr Assange's release of the cables "grossly irresponsible". Over the past two weeks, Wikileaks has released thousands of classified messages from US envoys around the world, from more than 250,000 it has been given. Washington has called their publication "irresponsible" and an "attack on the international community". 'First class job' In an interview with Reuters news agency, Mr Rudd said: "Mr Assange is not himself responsible for the unauthorised release of 250,000 documents from the US diplomatic communications network. The Americans are responsible for that." The Australian government has found itself in the anomalous position of offering consular assistance to Julian Assange after his arrest in London, while at the same time being highly critical of his part in leaking sensitive US diplomatic cables. Julian Assange has written an opinion piece for The Australian newspaper which is scathing in its criticism of the Gillard government, accusing her of "trying to shoot the messenger". The case of Julian Assange is already drawing comparisons here with the detention of an Australian, David Hicks, at Guantanamo Bay. Hicks, who trained with al-Qaeda in Afghanistan, was found guilty of providing material support for terrorism by an American military tribunal. But he became something of a folk hero for many Australians, because of the widespread feeling that he was treated unfairly by the Americans after being detained at Guantanamo Bay without trial. Mr Rudd, the former prime minister who was replaced by Julia Gillard in June, added: "I think there are real questions to be asked about the adequacy of [the US] security systems and the level of access that people have had to that material. "The core responsibility, and therefore legal liability, goes to those individuals responsible for that initial unauthorised release." The White House has ordered US government agencies to tighten their handling of classified documents in the wake of the Wikileaks releases. Mr Rudd was dismissed in one leaked US cable as a "mistake-prone control freak". In cables published by the Sydney Morning Herald former US ambassador Robert McCallum said Mr Rudd made "snap announcements without consulting other countries or within the Australian government". The US was also angered at what it called Mr Rudd's "self-serving and inaccurate leaking" of a phone call with then US President George W Bush in which Mr Rudd was reported as saying: "Stunned to hear Bush say, 'What's the G20?'" Mr Rudd shrugged off the criticism, saying: "I'm sure much worse has been written about me in the past and probably much worse will be written about me in the future but frankly, mate, I don't care. Main Leaks So Far · Fears that terrorists may acquire Pakistani nuclear material · Several Arab leaders urged attack on Iran over nuclear issue · US instructs spying on key UN officials · China's changing ties with North Korea · Yemen approved US strikes on militants · Personal and embarrassing comments on world leaders · Afghan leader Hamid Karzai freed dangerous detainees · Russia is a "virtual mafia state" with widespread corruption and bribery · Afghan President Hamid Karzai is "paranoid and weak". Extent of corruption in Afghanistan · Chinese leadership "hacked Google" · A list of key global facilities the US says are vital to its national security · UK fears over Lockerbie bomber · Wikileaks cables: Key issues · Assange v Swedish sex laws "My job's just to act in Australia's national interest as Australia's foreign minister. I don't, frankly, give a damn about this sort of thing. You just get on with it." Ms Gillard defended Mr Rudd, saying: "He's bringing [his] expertise to bear for the Australian nation and doing an absolutely first class job." Mr Assange has been highly critical of the Australian government's stance on the release of the cables. In an opinion piece in The Australian on Wednesday, Mr Assange accused the Australian government of "disgraceful pandering" to the Americans and of putting the powers of the government fully at the disposal of the US. In the piece headlined "Don't shoot the messenger for revealing uncomfortable truths", he says: "Democratic societies need a strong media and Wikileaks is part of that media. The media helps keep government honest." He adds: "The Australian attorney-general is doing everything he can to help a US investigation clearly directed at framing Australian citizens and shipping them to the US." Mr Assange has been refused bail by a court in London but has vowed to fight extradition to Sweden. He denies sexually assaulting two women in Sweden but was remanded in custody pending a hearing next week. Mr Assange's lawyer, Mark Stephens, has claimed the charges are "politically motivated". On a visit to Serbia on Wednesday, Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt said there had been no contact with US authorities about the possible extradition of Mr Assange from Sweden to the US. The US has begun a criminal investigation and vowed to punish anyone found responsible for illegal leaks. No-one has been charged with passing the diplomatic files to Wikileaks, but suspicion has fallen on US Army private Bradley Manning, an intelligence analyst arrested in Iraq in June and charged over an earlier leak. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
From what I've heard so far from 'wikileaks' I don't personally understand what Mr. Assange has to gain from it (sure I'm gonna get crucified on here by The Guardian crew for saying that!)? Yes, I've heard his lawyer going on about him only being the 'messenger' and having a duty to let people know, but really - for whose benefit and at what price?
Does the public have a right to know these things? if you think we do then just what good will it do us by being given this information? Will it make us into better, caring, decent people just for finding out? I doubt it. Is it going to iradicate world hunger and poverty? I doubt it. So, of what benefit does it really give us by been given these 'leaks'? It's not as if the majority of us didn't think or have suspicions that these kind of things were going on in the world anyway? It will be interesting to see what happens next, Australia's support or not for him and what the rest of the world's responses/actions will be now. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9029160)
Does the public have a right to know these things? if you think we do then just what good will it do us by being given this information? Will it make us into better, caring, decent people just for finding out? I doubt it. Is it going to iradicate world hunger and poverty? I doubt it. So, of what benefit does it really give us by been given these 'leaks'? It's not as if the majority of us didn't think or have suspicions that these kind of things were going on in the world anyway? It will be interesting to see what happens next, Australia's support or not for him and what the rest of the world's responses/actions will be now. Does not knowing the information mean hunger and poverty will be eradicated? :rolleyes: Does not knowing the information mean we're all better people? :rolleyes: Um, no. It just means that the information is controlled and we can be more easily manipulated because we don't know all the facts. Maybe you'd be happier in feudal times when some lord type told you how the world was and you could merrily go on your way, cutting peat, but I'm not. I think I have as much right to know as my leaders. They're ultimately accountable to me and everyone else I know. It's difficult to hold people to account if you don't know what they're up to. I don't buy the line that some people have some kind of moral right to know more or are somehow 'better' because of their position. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
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Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Kiwilass
(Post 9029203)
Yes, we do.
Does not knowing the information mean hunger and poverty will be eradicated? :rolleyes: Does not knowing the information mean we're all better people? :rolleyes: Um, no. It just means that the information is controlled and we can be more easily manipulated because we don't know all the facts. Maybe you'd be happier in feudal times when some lord type told you how the world was and you could merrily go on your way, cutting peat, but I'm not. I think I have as much right to know as my leaders. They're ultimately accountable to me and everyone else I know. I don't buy the line that some people have some kind of moral right to know more or are somehow 'better' because of their position. So when you do know - what then? will you be able to take on your world leaders to do............ah, yes, to do what exactly? or is it just so you can sit back with a sense of smugness because you know 'information'? I'm NOT disputing you don't have a right to not know - but answer me - how will YOU or anybody else gain from it? |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9029160)
Does the public have a right to know these things?
The people can agree that sometimes government can operate more effectively if some things are kept confidential. They temporarily suspend their right to know what the government is up to, but they don't give up that right. And, when governments lie, or when they seek to manipulate the people who elected them by selective release of information, we should be grateful that people like Assange have the b*ll*cks to publish material that exposes the deceit. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Kiwilass
(Post 9029203)
It just means that the information is controlled and we can be more easily manipulated because we don't know all the facts.
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Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9029231)
:confused: no, but my point was - how will this benefit joe public?
So when you do know - what then? will you be able to take on your world leaders to do............ah, yes, to do what exactly? or is it just so you can sit back with a sense of smugness because you know 'information'? I'm NOT disputing you don't have a right to not know - but answer me - how will YOU or anybody else gain from it? |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by JonboyE
(Post 9029244)
And to add to what kiwilass says above, yes, absolutely. Governments are elected by the people to serve the people and the people have an unconditional right to know what is being done in their name.
The people can agree that sometimes government can operate more effectively if some things are kept confidential. They temporarily suspend their right to know what the government is up to, but they don't give up that right. And, when governments lie, or when they seek to manipulate the people who elected them by selective release of information, we should be grateful that people like Assange have the b*ll*cks to publish material that exposes the deceit. Look, I'd say that the vast majority of us know that Governments around the world lie - but what will it do kow that he has published it? It won't stop Governments lying, it won't stop people seeing these lying Governments and then still foolishly vote for them to come into power again and again. Will it make you start looking for an alternative political party that doesn't lie so you can vote for them? Are we not the ones that should be saying to ourselves now - well actually we're the twats for voting in these stupid, lying politicians in the first place? You're sought of saying that you want transparency but yet are happy to vote (assuming of course that you do vote?) and have these people represent you? |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
I'm glad the leaks happened. I think its important to know that the US, Canada and the UK have covered up many of their questionable activities in the Middle East and among other tin pot regimes.
What I would question though is the need for us to know cabled perceptions of government leaders across the world. I think it's hardly a surprise given the various scandals that have circulated the Wessex's that Prince Andrew is something of a racist, or that Putin runs a corrupt regime, or that Italian politicians are corrupt. I mean none of this should really be much of a surprise to anyone. What concerns me more is Hilary Clinton's request for DNA, Fingerprints and detailed contact information for UN ambassadors, the US list of important non-military assets and the treatment of the Wikileaks folk since this story and the Afghan/ Iraq leaks came out. I think these leaks illustrate the over-dominance of the US on the world stage and that *surprise* *surprise* that the US acts in no-one's interests but its own. I suspect that the CIA are disappointed that they can't off Assange quietly and are heavily involved in the charges he faces in Sweden... |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9029269)
Look, I'd say that the vast majority of us know that Governments around the world lie - but what will it do kow that he has published it? It won't stop Governments lying, it won't stop people seeing these lying Governments and then still foolishly vote for them to come into power again and again.
Will it make you start looking for an alternative political party that doesn't lie so you can vote for them? Are we not the ones that should be saying to ourselves now - well actually we're the twats for voting in these stupid, lying politicians in the first place? You're sought of saying that you want transparency but yet are happy to vote (assuming of course that you do vote?) and have these people represent you? So you're saying that we should quietly sit by and let governments do exactly what they want to. Why bother to vote at all, why don't we just welcome our feudal overlords and go back to strip farming? |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 9029262)
It benefits the public because the actions and motivations of those in power become transparent - this leads to better and more accountable government.
I think it should by all means make a Government better and make them work for what the people want and make them accountable, by us being able to know but in all honesty, I don't think it happens or will happen. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9029288)
But, didn't we think this after the expenses scandle? has this happened?
I think it should by all means make a Government better and make them work for what the people want and make them accountable, by us being able to know but in all honesty, I don't think it happens or will happen. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Pretty Flowers
(Post 9029287)
So you're saying that we should quietly sit by and let governments do exactly what they want to. Why bother to vote at all, why don't we just welcome our feudal overlords and go back to strip farming?
Ok, so now we are agreeing in a way about Governments, politicians, organisations being corupt - how many of you now on your moral high horse after Mr. Assanges 'leaks' will actually do anything about it? How will you fight or take on these politicians, Governments and organisations? I've been pissed with Britains government before and tried to make my voice heard in the form of petitions, emails and letters sent off to them - but it didn't change anything. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9029269)
You're sought of saying that you want transparency but yet are happy to vote (assuming of course that you do vote?) and have these people represent you?
Will the other guys be any better? Well, I think that if they know their duplicity is likely to be exposed they are less likely to be duplicitous. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
And for anyone unable to read the link I posted about I'll repeat the first paragraph.
Every one of us owes a debt to Julian Assange. Thanks to him, we now know that our governments are pursuing policies that place you and your family in considerably greater danger. Wikileaks has informed us they have secretly launched war on yet another Muslim country, sanctioned torture, kidnapped innocent people from the streets of free countries and intimidated the police into hushing it up, and covered up the killing of 15,000 civilians – five times the number killed on 9/11. Each one of these acts has increased the number of jihadis. We can only change these policies if we know about them – and Assange has given us the black-and-white proof. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 9029293)
If it doesn't then eventually the government will be replaced. If the system keeps providing corrupt governments that abuse their power, then it to will eventually be replaced. You'd better hope you aren't around when this happens.
Look, I see what you are saying but I honestly just see a corrupt one being replaced by another corrupt one. I'm not looking to argue with people on this, please feel free to 'educate' me or enlighten me but what from I can sense on here from peoples responses are : you're glad the leaks happened because it gave you certain truths and information you felt that you wouldn't have gotten from Governments, politicians and the like (but how on earth did you really believe these were telling you the truth in the first place is beyond me?) and now that you know it you will..................what? So, what will you actually do next? sit at home complaining to a partner about how bloody corrupt people are but yet, do nothing? argue with the establishment? start complaining about things? send off petitions? go and run for mayor? |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
In a democratic form of government, with the critical element rule by the demos "people", your representatives are simply that, your representatives. To use an analogy, if you employed a lawyer on your behalf, would you want them hide information from you? Wouldn't you want to know what they were up to? Full disclosure is in the best interests of a fair and open system. If you can't hide your nefarious behaviours, you're a lot less likely to do them.
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Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Oink
(Post 9029411)
In a democratic form of government, with the critical element rule by the demos "people", your representatives are simply that, your representatives. To use an analogy, if you employed a lawyer on your behalf, would you want them hide information from you? Wouldn't you want to know what they were up to? Full disclosure is in the best interests of a fair and open system. If you can't hide your nefarious behaviours, you're a lot less likely to do them.
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Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
I'm waiting for the leak that finally reveals our lizard overlords and proves David Icke right. I bet it's in there somewhere.
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Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 9029500)
I'm waiting for the leak that finally reveals our lizard overlords and proves David Icke right. I bet it's in there somewhere.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...age1274520/pg1 |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
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Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Personally, I think the whole smearing of Assange is pretty disgusting.
Classic ad hominem attack on the man to divert attention from the information he is leaking and reduce his credibility. I've heard his supposed crimes described as rape in the news media, which is a total mispresentation of what appears to have happened. History will judge some of the players in this story very harshly. This includes the mainstream media, which circled the wagons very quickly to support governments. Assange has done what the mainstream media would never do to the same extent, and they don't like it. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Lemonfish
(Post 9030002)
Personally, I think the whole smearing of Assange is pretty disgusting.
Classic ad hominem attack on the man to divert attention from the information he is leaking and reduce his credibility. I've heard his supposed crimes described as rape in the news media, which is a total mispresentation of what appears to have happened. History will judge some of the players in this story very harshly. This includes the mainstream media, which circled the wagons very quickly to support governments. Assange has done what the mainstream media would never do to the same extent, and they don't like it. And the media aren't pissed at Assange out of any form of jealousy. They are the mouthpiece of the elite. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9029160)
From what I've heard so far from 'wikileaks' I don't personally understand what Mr. Assange has to gain from it (sure I'm gonna get crucified on here by The Guardian crew for saying that!)? Yes, I've heard his lawyer going on about him only being the 'messenger' and having a duty to let people know, but really - for whose benefit and at what price?
For all those banging on about our 'right to know', where would you draw the line with that?. How about if wikileaks started publishing NATO troop movements in Afghanistan, prior to any offensive? |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by iamthecreaturefromuranus
(Post 9030298)
Looks like you were right.
For all those banging on about our 'right to know', where would you draw the line with that?. How about if wikileaks started publishing NATO troop movements in Afghanistan, prior to any offensive? I don't think anyone on here has actually answered the question of what will they do now they are 'forearmed'. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9030787)
I don't think anyone on here has actually answered the question of what will they do now they are 'forearmed'.
This material is historic, as in it's already happened... What it does is to highlight the ease with which the ruling classes lie to the people they are paid to serve. Whilst a percentage of these lies could be argued as serving the greater good a huge amount of this material exposes childish tantrums, misinformation campaigns & a suppression of facts for private gain, be that political or even more directly financial. I'm not clear as to the problem here, everyone with an ounce of intelligence already knew that they were a self serving bunch of liars... |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by iamthecreaturefromuranus
(Post 9030298)
Looks like you were right.
For all those banging on about our 'right to know', where would you draw the line with that?. How about if wikileaks started publishing NATO troop movements in Afghanistan, prior to any offensive? This isn't a left/right thing - only an idiot would think that. It's an authoritarian/libertarian one - you think the US is free?, it's looking more like China on a daily basis. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Joe_Sleepy
(Post 9030905)
Nobody is "forearmed"...
This material is historic, as in it's already happened... What it does is to highlight the ease with which the ruling classes lie to the people they are paid to serve. Whilst a percentage of these lies could be argued as serving the greater good a huge amount of this material exposes childish tantrums, misinformation campaigns & a suppression of facts for private gain, be that political or even more directly financial. I'm not clear as to the problem here, everyone with an ounce of intelligence already knew that they were a self serving bunch of liars... Forearmed with the knowledge, facts, whatever you want to call it from Assange, what do you want to do about it know? I honestly don't think anyone of you will go off and say "you know what, I've had enough of all this corrupt twats, I'm leaving to start my own political party because I can't trust anyone whose in power". I'm trying to make you lot think on here - you tell me it's your right to know. You tell me you can now make informed decisions. But tell me what will your actions be? It's not like you can take down these corrupt organisations yourself, is it? |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 9030938)
How about if wikileaks had published all the memos leading up to the war? There might not have been one.
This isn't a left/right thing - only an idiot would think that. It's an authoritarian/libertarian one - you think the US is free?, it's looking more like China on a daily basis. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9030942)
But we know already the ruling classes lie to the people they serve and always have done - that's not rocket science. You are right about that.
Forearmed with the knowledge, facts, whatever you want to call it from Assange, what do you want to do about it know? I honestly don't think anyone of you will go off and say "you know what, I've had enough of all this corrupt twats, I'm leaving to start my own political party because I can't trust anyone whose in power". I'm trying to make you lot think on here - you tell me it's your right to know. You tell me you can now make informed decisions. But tell me what will your actions be? It's not like you can take down these corrupt organisations yourself, is it? |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9030952)
Only in the sense that most on here seem to quote time after time The Guardian, so in a way, your are gathering your information from left-wing, liberal journalists who are putting their spin on things.
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Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
But we know already the ruling classes lie to the people they serve and always have done - that's not rocket science. You are right about that. Forearmed with the knowledge, facts, whatever you want to call it from Assange, what do you want to do about it know? I honestly don't think anyone of you will go off and say "you know what, I've had enough of all this corrupt twats, I'm leaving to start my own political party because I can't trust anyone whose in power". I'm trying to make you lot think on here - you tell me it's your right to know. You tell me you can now make informed decisions. But tell me what will your actions be? It's not like you can take down these corrupt organisations yourself, is it? Just think of the people who have been a force for change Ghandi - whose peaceful protest lead to independence for India The Suffragettes - who secured the vote for women The womens' movement - who increased sexual equality Rosa Parks & other civil rights activists - MLK etc. Corizion Acquino - Secured democracy in the Phillipines Lech Wałęsa - Solidarity Poland History is full of people and movements who have fought for democracy. But now you're saying that we shouldn't bother being agents for change? Why not give up your right to vote and the other rights that other people fought and died for - that you benefit from. I'm glad that I personally, and others do not think the way that you do. And yes I do agitate for change in my own way. And it's not always about forming your own political party. It's about being involved in your own community. It's about protesting about the things you consider to be important to protest about. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Alan2005
(Post 9030956)
I don't think you are getting it at all. It's not up to you who decides to do something about it. It's up to individuals how they act on the information they see - if they do nothing, then that in itself is a decision they have made knowing the facts. You don't get to say, well you are doing nothing therefore it should this information should be kept secret.
So really you are saying that the public can now feel smug, content in knowing but not have the tools to do anything about it. I thought with all of this coming out the point of it was meant to highlight things - to bring about change? was it not? |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9030787)
... Will the public then start proclaiming that it is their right to know details about their place of employment? What next - the sexual orientation or religous beliefs or political stance of their boss?
I don't think anyone on here has actually answered the question of what will they do now they are 'forearmed'. Put it in a different context. Say a Minister in charge of a department that was responsible for employment decided that everyone who had been unemployed for six months had to go on a compulsory job seeking course. She then awarded the contract to run the courses to a company that was owned by her husband without any competitive bidding or value for money analysis. It turns out that the contract is for $50M. Several other companies would have bid around $25M if they had been asked to quote. So I have two questions for you: a) Should the Minister be able to declare the bidding process and size of the contract a government secret? b) If she knew that the bidding process and contract would be published in the press would she have even attempted to steal $25M of public money? |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Pretty Flowers
(Post 9030971)
I'm actually shocked that someone would say that nothing they could do could change the political system anywhere in the world. Just exactly where would we be if everyone believed that?
Just think of the people who have been a force for change Ghandi - whose peaceful protest lead to independence for India The Suffragettes - who secured the vote for women The womens' movement - who increased sexual equality Rosa Parks & other civil rights activists - MLK etc. Corizion Acquino - Secured democracy in the Phillipines Lech Wałęsa - Solidarity Poland History is full of people and movements who have fought for democracy. But now you're saying that we shouldn't bother being agents for change? Why not give up your right to vote and the other rights that other people fought and died for - that you benefit from. I'm glad that I personally, and others do not think the way that you do. And yes I do agitate for change in my own way. And it's not always about forming your own political party. It's about being involved in your own community. It's about protesting about the things you consider to be important to protest about. So, are the lilly-livered posters on here going to start following Assange and do what he asks of you - to make the world better - like Emmeline pankhursts movement then, eh? I think NOT |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Pretty Flowers
(Post 9030971)
I'm actually shocked that someone would say that nothing they could do could change the political system anywhere in the world. Just exactly where would we be if everyone believed that?
Just think of the people who have been a force for change Ghandi - whose peaceful protest lead to independence for India The Suffragettes - who secured the vote for women The womens' movement - who increased sexual equality Rosa Parks & other civil rights activists - MLK etc. Corizion Acquino - Secured democracy in the PhillipinesLech Wałęsa - Solidarity Poland History is full of people and movements who have fought for democracy. But now you're saying that we shouldn't bother being agents for change? Why not give up your right to vote and the other rights that other people fought and died for - that you benefit from. I'm glad that I personally, and others do not think the way that you do. And yes I do agitate for change in my own way. And it's not always about forming your own political party. It's about being involved in your own community. It's about protesting about the things you consider to be important to protest about. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9031000)
Ermm hang on here lady, don't talk about Emmeline pankhurst to me! (at least she had some balls unlike the lilly-livered jibberish that most on here are spouting out and won't do JACK SHIT about). She was a great woman who did bring about change - because she decided she had enough of the bollocks, so got off her arse and did something about it - She was an activist and took herself and other suffragetes off to different countries to talk to Women about their rights. She made it better for Women - how is Assange going to make it better for YOU
So, are the lilly-livered posters on here going to start following Assange and do what he asks of you - to make the world better - like Emmeline pankhursts movement then, eh? I think NOT |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by Pretty Flowers
(Post 9030971)
I'm actually shocked that someone would say that nothing they could do could change the political system anywhere in the world. Just exactly where would we be if everyone believed that?
Just think of the people who have been a force for change Ghandi - whose peaceful protest lead to independence for India The Suffragettes - who secured the vote for women The womens' movement - who increased sexual equality Rosa Parks & other civil rights activists - MLK etc. Corizion Acquino - Secured democracy in the Phillipines Lech Wałęsa - Solidarity Poland History is full of people and movements who have fought for democracy. But now you're saying that we shouldn't bother being agents for change? Why not give up your right to vote and the other rights that other people fought and died for - that you benefit from. I'm glad that I personally, and others do not think the way that you do. And yes I do agitate for change in my own way. And it's not always about forming your own political party. It's about being involved in your own community. It's about protesting about the things you consider to be important to protest about. |
Re: Wikileaks: Australia FM blames US, not Julian Assange
Originally Posted by greentea3
(Post 9031017)
Ermm, hang on how do you know how I think anyway, and who and what I stick up for in my community and my past countries communities. To base some kind of opinion about what my ethics and morals are just from a post on here is pretty naive, wouldnèt you say.
If you don't are you trolling or playing devil's advocate - or do you feel caught out by some examples of people who have made changes in their society? I wasn't making any comment about your morals and values. I actually was talking about my own, which are to care about government corruption, to want to know what really is going on in the world, and based on that information to try to do something about it. These leaks give concrete evidence about the way that the US government has lied, both to its own citizens and to the rest of the world. There's a reason for the statement 'knowledge is power' |
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