Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
Sep 28th 2011, 5:24 pm
#61
Yorkshire meets Vegas
Joined: Jul 2004
Location: T. ON (so there!)
Posts: 1,354
Re: Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
[/pedant]
Sep 28th 2011, 7:40 pm
#62
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Joined: Sep 2006
Location: Southeast Calgary
Posts: 321
Re: Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
I'm not any kind of education expert, but it would seem fair to me to give some credit to kids that make it despite the odds. If this can be done by qualitatively by admissions tutors then I wouldn't have a problem with that, as long as it's transparent.
The main problem with schemes like this isn't that they are necessarily unfair, but the point that Oink alluded to in post 9 - i.e. people will game them to their advantage.
The main problem with schemes like this isn't that they are necessarily unfair, but the point that Oink alluded to in post 9 - i.e. people will game them to their advantage.
She worked really hard and found out that the local boys Grammar school accepted girl pupils to study for A'levels. The school happens to be one of the top schools in the country for A'level results. In order to get in, she had to sit an entrance exam, get top grades in her GCSEs and attend an interview. Through solid hard work and self-motivation she was accepted. However when a couple of her teachers at the Comprehensive school found out, they upset her by not congratulating her for her hard work, but accusing her of going to a school that was elitist. This made me so angry, bearing in mind that my daughter has never received additional coaching/tutoring in any of her subjects.
There were alot of kids at the Grammar school that came from privileged backgrounds, but not all. Forty-one kids at the school got accepted for Oxbridge, including her, and all but one made the grades. My daughter is heading off there on Monday to study English.
Almost Canadian is right,the kids are all doing the same exams. It is not only down to the parents encouragement/money though, the kids still need to have some kind of motivation to succeed
Sep 28th 2011, 7:44 pm
#63
Banned
Joined: Dec 2010
Location: Durham Region Extension
Posts: 3,342
Re: Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
Some kids do make it against the odds. My daughter stayed in the UK with my ex-husband, who despite being a good father at keeping the roof over their heads, has never been very involved in school work/homework. She went to the local comprehensive and decided in her early teens that she wanted to attend Oxford University.
She worked really hard and found out that the local boys Grammar school accepted girl pupils to study for A'levels. The school happens to be one of the top schools in the country for A'level results. In order to get in, she had to sit an entrance exam, get top grades in her GCSEs and attend an interview. Through solid hard work and self-motivation she was accepted. However when a couple of her teachers at the Comprehensive school found out, they upset her by not congratulating her for her hard work, but accusing her of going to a school that was elitist. This made me so angry, bearing in mind that my daughter has never received additional coaching/tutoring in any of her subjects.
There were alot of kids at the Grammar school that came from privileged backgrounds, but not all. Forty-one kids at the school got accepted for Oxbridge, including her, and all but one made the grades. My daughter is heading off there on Monday to study English.
Almost Canadian is right,the kids are all doing the same exams. It is not only down to the parents encouragement/money though, the kids still need to have some kind of motivation to succeed
She worked really hard and found out that the local boys Grammar school accepted girl pupils to study for A'levels. The school happens to be one of the top schools in the country for A'level results. In order to get in, she had to sit an entrance exam, get top grades in her GCSEs and attend an interview. Through solid hard work and self-motivation she was accepted. However when a couple of her teachers at the Comprehensive school found out, they upset her by not congratulating her for her hard work, but accusing her of going to a school that was elitist. This made me so angry, bearing in mind that my daughter has never received additional coaching/tutoring in any of her subjects.
There were alot of kids at the Grammar school that came from privileged backgrounds, but not all. Forty-one kids at the school got accepted for Oxbridge, including her, and all but one made the grades. My daughter is heading off there on Monday to study English.
Almost Canadian is right,the kids are all doing the same exams. It is not only down to the parents encouragement/money though, the kids still need to have some kind of motivation to succeed
Little D....that is a wicked story, congrats to your lass for beating the odds! If that is not a lesson / motivator to other kids, then I don't know
I am sure with that can do attitude, she is going to ace oxbridge and make you a prouder mum at the end of it
Thanks for sharing that
Sep 28th 2011, 10:29 pm
#64
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
But you're right, the Student Loans Company was first set up to provide supplementary loans for living costs i.e. before the Education Authorities stopped paying the fees and providing maintenance grant.. But when it was set up the average loan was under 400 quid and there was only a 28% uptake.
Things changed completely when maintenance grants were replaced by fees to the student.
Sep 29th 2011, 12:44 am
#65
Dive Bar Drunk
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: Toronto
Posts: 8,649
Re: Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
Thank you for the compliment. There are a couple of distinguished things about you as well.
But you're right, the Student Loans Company was first set up to provide supplementary loans for living costs i.e. before the Education Authorities stopped paying the fees and providing maintenance grant.. But when it was set up the average loan was under 400 quid and there was only a 28% uptake.
Things changed completely when maintenance grants were replaced by fees to the student.
But you're right, the Student Loans Company was first set up to provide supplementary loans for living costs i.e. before the Education Authorities stopped paying the fees and providing maintenance grant.. But when it was set up the average loan was under 400 quid and there was only a 28% uptake.
Things changed completely when maintenance grants were replaced by fees to the student.
My older brother recieved a grant each year of £2,500.
I recieved nothing but did not have to pay tuition fees.
My sister then had to pay £1000 a year in tuition.
My younger brother £3000 a year in tuition.
This was over an 11 year period. My older brother left with next to no debt and my younger brother with close to £20,000.
My older brother owned a property at 28, my younger brother is far from it.
I have to say I would not go now for the £20k worth of debt unless I was studying medicine or for a profession where the degree was required specifically. I think in many professions 3 years of work experience would be more valuable than 3 years studying something that may not be useful and will burden you for how ever many years.
My understanding is that tuition fees are now well over £3000.......although I don't pay enough attention to it anymore.
I was bought up in an environment where my parents expected us all to go to University. I do not think these days that I would place that expectation of debt on my children if I had them approaching university age.
Sep 29th 2011, 1:25 am
#66
.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,185
Re: Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
Interestingly I and my siblings all went to university with different financial circumstances on graduating.
My older brother recieved a grant each year of £2,500.
I recieved nothing but did not have to pay tuition fees.
My sister then had to pay £1000 a year in tuition.
My younger brother £3000 a year in tuition.
This was over an 11 year period. My older brother left with next to no debt and my younger brother with close to £20,000.
My older brother owned a property at 28, my younger brother is far from it.
I have to say I would not go now for the £20k worth of debt unless I was studying medicine or for a profession where the degree was required specifically. I think in many professions 3 years of work experience would be more valuable than 3 years studying something that may not be useful and will burden you for how ever many years.
My understanding is that tuition fees are now well over £3000.......although I don't pay enough attention to it anymore.
I was bought up in an environment where my parents expected us all to go to University. I do not think these days that I would place that expectation of debt on my children if I had them approaching university age.
My older brother recieved a grant each year of £2,500.
I recieved nothing but did not have to pay tuition fees.
My sister then had to pay £1000 a year in tuition.
My younger brother £3000 a year in tuition.
This was over an 11 year period. My older brother left with next to no debt and my younger brother with close to £20,000.
My older brother owned a property at 28, my younger brother is far from it.
I have to say I would not go now for the £20k worth of debt unless I was studying medicine or for a profession where the degree was required specifically. I think in many professions 3 years of work experience would be more valuable than 3 years studying something that may not be useful and will burden you for how ever many years.
My understanding is that tuition fees are now well over £3000.......although I don't pay enough attention to it anymore.
I was bought up in an environment where my parents expected us all to go to University. I do not think these days that I would place that expectation of debt on my children if I had them approaching university age.
Sep 29th 2011, 2:18 am
#67
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
Interestingly I and my siblings all went to university with different financial circumstances on graduating.
My older brother recieved a grant each year of £2,500.
I recieved nothing but did not have to pay tuition fees.
My sister then had to pay £1000 a year in tuition.
My younger brother £3000 a year in tuition.
This was over an 11 year period. My older brother left with next to no debt and my younger brother with close to £20,000.
My older brother owned a property at 28, my younger brother is far from it.
I have to say I would not go now for the £20k worth of debt unless I was studying medicine or for a profession where the degree was required specifically. I think in many professions 3 years of work experience would be more valuable than 3 years studying something that may not be useful and will burden you for how ever many years.
My understanding is that tuition fees are now well over £3000.......although I don't pay enough attention to it anymore.
I was bought up in an environment where my parents expected us all to go to University. I do not think these days that I would place that expectation of debt on my children if I had them approaching university age.
My older brother recieved a grant each year of £2,500.
I recieved nothing but did not have to pay tuition fees.
My sister then had to pay £1000 a year in tuition.
My younger brother £3000 a year in tuition.
This was over an 11 year period. My older brother left with next to no debt and my younger brother with close to £20,000.
My older brother owned a property at 28, my younger brother is far from it.
I have to say I would not go now for the £20k worth of debt unless I was studying medicine or for a profession where the degree was required specifically. I think in many professions 3 years of work experience would be more valuable than 3 years studying something that may not be useful and will burden you for how ever many years.
My understanding is that tuition fees are now well over £3000.......although I don't pay enough attention to it anymore.
I was bought up in an environment where my parents expected us all to go to University. I do not think these days that I would place that expectation of debt on my children if I had them approaching university age.
Sep 29th 2011, 2:32 am
#68
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 1,244
Re: Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
People who bang on about the perceived individual devaluation of the degrees are usually older people who fear the degrees they’ve already have aren’t so special anymore, but that’s just a form of elitism. There’s ample research to suggest that the greater the human capital, the greater the benefit to both individual and a more generally, the economy as a whole. Productivity increases and thus overall growth of the economy increases. Educated people simply create more. Higher levels of education, especially tertiary education, also tend to decrease income disparities, we become more equal, not less.
There is also social value; there are all kinds of spillover effects or positive externalities that a more educated society bestows. There’s also evidence to suggest that more participation in HE lowers the crime rate, plus is it not more agreeable to live in a society where the vast majority of people understand the structure and nature of their surroundings?
There is also social value; there are all kinds of spillover effects or positive externalities that a more educated society bestows. There’s also evidence to suggest that more participation in HE lowers the crime rate, plus is it not more agreeable to live in a society where the vast majority of people understand the structure and nature of their surroundings?
Haven't read the whole thread through but one troubling thing that concerns me is the impact this has on those doing postgraduate work. At least the scary debt that undergraduates will be saddled with is a hidden one to them (though what impact it will have on them to get credit, mortgages I don't know - that could harm the economy further) in the sense that it's a repayment by affordability debt, but postgraduates will not have that luxury at all and will be hit just as hard if not worse (hammered more upfront). That could really put people off from going to graduate school.
Not only might this mean there could be a shortage of people in training for
professional occupations requiring a postgraduate degree very soon, but it might also mean that fewer people go on and get PhDs to become academics. The problem with giving away PhDs is that any knuckle-dragger with a day job might get to teach my kids one day. Not so good.
Sep 29th 2011, 5:28 am
#69
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2006
Location: Southeast Calgary
Posts: 321
Re: Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
Little D....that is a wicked story, congrats to your lass for beating the odds! If that is not a lesson / motivator to other kids, then I don't know
I am sure with that can do attitude, she is going to ace oxbridge and make you a prouder mum at the end of it
Thanks for sharing that
I am sure with that can do attitude, she is going to ace oxbridge and make you a prouder mum at the end of it
Thanks for sharing that
Sep 29th 2011, 3:42 pm
#71
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: Cochrane, Alberta
Posts: 7,861
Re: Why bother with University, why not just give every school leaver a Phd?
We have an administrative assistant at our place who studied music for four years. I'm sure she did it because she enjoyed it and was probably reasonably good at it. But to do that, pay for it and then end up shuffling papers and contracts around - youch - that's an expensive exercise in education.
If I have any input on paying for my kids edumacation, they is doing sumfink "useful"
