Novocastrian

Actually, iain, I think it would be better termed "forgetance". Just because "our" population isn't currently being decimated by the realpolitik of existing power structures, this allows us to wallow in sentimentalism, rather than address the hard fact that worse stuff is being perpetrated as we speak.

fuschiagirl

Exactly! It's NOT "Glorification Day" - no sensible person would think so

It is "REMEMBRANCE Day" - a completely different concept.

Souvenir

I do not recall using the word "glorification".

Unspeakable horror happened several times in the 20th century and has continued to happen in the first decade of the current century. Without public awareness - and thus political awareness - the western governments wouldn't give a toss about ethnics murdering each other in vast numbers. At least some attempt is being made to stop it.

You appear to see Remembrance Day as some sort of army reunion. It is true that old blokes with medals feature quite large but the event serves to raise awareness, particularly among the young, of the revolting things man can do to man, if left unchecked. I have found that the old blokes with medals do not glorify war and that teenagers they talk to are ready to take on board what they hear. This is a good thing.

Novocastrian

I think we'll have to agree to differ. Most of what you say is understandable, but I don't see remembrance day as an army reunion, I see it as a part of the propaganda for the concept of patriotism. When I posted the post which appears to have offended more than a few, I was also highlighting the display of Olympic class synchronized knee-jerking from a group of posters who are usually much more analytical.

Oakvillian

and your getting the completely wrong end of the stick and banging on about glorification of conflict differs from knee-jerking in what way, exactly?

As most on this thread have said, Remembrance Day is not about patriotism, jingoism, we-whupped-your-ass whooping or hollering. I don't think it's propaganda for anything except a reminder that war is a bloody, vicious, uncivilised thing, and that it is still going on in far too many theatres around the world today. Whether "our" troops are involved or not is pretty much immaterial to that part of the message.

There's nothing un-analytical about that stance. I thought Iain's post, which elicited the support to which you objected so strongly, put the sentiment rather well.
Why is that such a bad thing? apart from the split infinitive, of course...

Souvenir

My analysis is evidence-based.

Your implied assertion that a poppy = knee-jerking jingoism just doesn't cut the mustard with me.

dbd33

While agreeing with the above I saw the opening of Iain's post as being a repudiation of the position of the OP, a position which I think can be fairly characterized as jingoistic. I thought that worthy of support.

Novocastrian

"and to never forget the unimaginable horrors that wars create in the hope that we never go down that global path again."

But how can "we" hope that, when it's plainly obvious that this path is precisely the one we've never wavered from?

Of course the split infinitive doesn't help.

fledermaus

That's the problem isn't it. Some treat it as glory reveling in it, maybe it is just bravado hiding how they really feel. These days we are more touchy-feely and men can show their sorrow and pain from battle.

In the period since I was a teenage hippy and antiwar, to now when I am just hippy, there has been an enormous shift in how the day is perceived.

It used to be old people in uniforms who turned up for parade, now there are young people in uniform. maybe that brings it home more, stops it being history.

Of course the USA doesn't help by calling it Veteran's Day.

Oakvillian

ermmm... there hasn't been a global conflict since the end of WWII - sometimes apparently despite the best efforts of politicians, it's true.

For all its ineffectiveness during much of the Cold War and its cripping reliance on agreement between the veto-holding powers, the United Nations has done a great deal to avoid regional conflicts escalating into global war. Sure, there are (storng) arguments that regional wars where powers fight by proxy - much of the postcolonial history of Africa is riven with them - have in fact been bloodier than the European wars of the first half of the 20th century.

To that extent, there is an element of "I'm all right, Jack" in the attitudes of Westerners towards "foreign" wars in which we have no overt involvement. But that, again, is to stray into the realm of international realpolitik and the even dodgier world of defence contracts and arms dealing. I suppose if you really press the point you could extrapolate from this and say that Remembrance Day is a bit NIMBY. I disagree, but I dislike having my views dismissed as unanalytical - this is a subject to which I've given much thought.

One reason for that thought is my own family history. My father served in Malaya, Cyprus and Northern Ireland, amongst other active duty postings; both my grandfathers fought in WWII - my maternal grandfather in East Africa then Burma (he was killed outside Rangoon) and my paternal grandfather in Burma and Singapore (he was captured during the fall of Singapore and later put to work on the Burma-Thai railway. He survived, but never fully recovered). I held a territorial army commission in my youth, but was never called up from the reserve for active service.

dbd33

But "veteran" in common usage in the US doesn't imply "old". It means only "formerly serving military" so the the ex-military hospital and benefits system is the "Veteran's Administration" and the equivalent of the Legion is the VFW. Since the US is constantly at war with someone there are veterans of all ages.

Novocastrian

The USA doesn't help in a lot of others ways either.

fledermaus

Yes, I realise this. My post was badly constructed with the veterans comment after the one about age. What I meant to say was the US name implies it's just to remember ex-troops, and not all victims of war, which is how I see the day.

Novocastrian

Global is a misused term though isn't it? WWII was widespread for sure, but aren't "we" now engaged in a global war on "terror"?

Yup.

Thanks for recognizing the point.

Your views are well taken. But we've broadened the discussion from where we've started. Rememberance Day and the Eurovision Song contest are so just so artificial.

dbd33

Ah, yes, I see that now.