What is wrong with people?
 

Specifically at this event

https://www.ft.com/content/075d679e-...0-9c0ad2d7c5b5

A fund raising dinner, men only, at The Dorchester has been reported by the Financial Times as a rather nasty event where the women employed as hostesses were groped, propositioned, leched at, by some of the men.

It's just nasty.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

It can’t be true as I didn’t see it on Facebook

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

I can't read it apparently,as I don't subscribe to the FT.

"Subscribe to the FT to read: Financial Times Men Only: Inside the charity fundraiser where hostesses are put on show"

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

It's also in the Daily Mail so it must be true...
Hostesses 'flashed at and groped' during Dorchester gala | Daily Mail Online
Not the best way to squeeze the wealthy for charity money I think.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

Male-only anything has a tendency to career towards showmanship - grandstanding or lothario behavior. Culturally, in the upper echelons, it is often thought as "letting off steam" or "boys will be boys". It's a puerile form of socialization that is sadly considered acceptable in some strata (mainly extreme upper or extreme lower).

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

That's odd. Neither do I but I got the full article.

It reminded me of a plotline in TV's Vice (I think) except the concern there was underage hostesses.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Men only event for the attendees, 130 young female hostesses employed to keep the men happy, had to wear sexy black underwear and short black dresses supplied by the organisers, seemed a lot like anything goes for the men groping and propositioning the girls, getting them drunk etc, most of the girls said they would never go again, some had been before so knew what to expect. Shows up the very worst in the upper echelons of society and is a real throwback system. I strongly suspect things are likely to change after the exposee, it's something that just shouldn't be contemplated in this day and age particularly in light of the Weinstein suspicions, The FT had to send a female reporter in undercover to try and verify the rumours as the girls had to sign non disclosure agreements before the event.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

I seem to be able to access without subscription. Try this link: https://www.ft.com/content/075d679e-...0-9c0ad2d7c5b5

Interesting tweet in my timeline this morning - a report on the same event in 2010 with slight eyebrow raising compared to the entirely justified outrage and distaste today. The world is changing. Some men are not changing with it fast enough.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

A large proportion of these men must also have daughters and would more than likely be horrified and presumably, litigatious should their children be subjected to such treatment? It boggles the mind, really.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

The misogynist bubble exposed by the FT reminds us power is still set up to exclude women
The Presidents Club dinner gave men a seat at the table but put women on the menu."

That's from The New Statesman.

Says it all really.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Not really. There are different types of people out there. Men and women. It's not my kind of event, but I think things are getting quite puritanical these days. We'll end up with a very anodyne society. And if transgender becomes a movement humans will end up sexless. However, since we're eventually going to be uploaded into a Borg like consciousness, that may be a moot point.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

I'm sorry but I wholeheartedly disagree. No one should expect to go to work as a hostess i.e. being friendly and serving drinks/canapes and endure being flashed at by men as a display of their power. It's dehumanising.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

They certainly should be warned of what kind of event it is, so that they can make an informed choice. In the article it suggests the warnings were vague. However for some women in the 'entertainment' industry, this would be something they could handle, and which they elect to do. Not dehumanising for them. It's part of their human experience, you just happen to disagree with it.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

I dunno..."don't tell your boyfriend" seems fairly specific to me.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Thankfully times are clearly changing. I wouldn't want my daughters or sons to think being objectified is an acceptable human experience to have at work, especially in such graphic terms as the ones described. By the same logic, you could argue that modern-slavery isnt dehumanising just because for some people it is part of their human experience. It can be an abuse of power of those involved at the expense of the person employed. Just because it has been a "flavour" of life in the past doesn't mean that it's right, considering that most of our interactions are social constructs based on what is considered acceptable in society at the time. That acceptability is fluid and does change over time.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

I see that GOSH are distancing themselves from it and returning all monies that have been given in the past, they do not want to be associated with such events.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

OH bats, I had such a loooong list in response to thread title ;) but the actual topic, and some of the responses on this thread make such depressing reading :(It's as if some have not evolved beyond Shard's profile pic. Sigh.

^Well said.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

The difference with slavery is that it is non-volitional. My point was that some individuals choose a different form of human experience.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

I think that, if one of my daughters were to apply for a job as a hostess there, we'd have much the same conversation as when one applied for a job at Hooters.

"Men are pigs, you know"

<rolls eyes> "I'm a lifeguard. What do you think hasn't happened already?"

Digression into discussion of dealing with "inappropriate costumes".


I don't say that people should be groped at work. I do say that someone signing up for a job where the required colour and format of knickers is specified should not expect better.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Yes, this is pretty much my view.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Here we are:

Presidents Club: Scandal-hit charity dinner organiser quits post - BBC News

The hostesses were made to sign a 5 page non-disclosure agreement.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

[QUOTE=JamesM;12426607]

The hostesses "were made" to sign a 5 page non-disclosure agreement.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Assuming you had the required income level, would you attend? If you did, how would you behave? Not personal. Just wondering. So much of the response to this seems to be 'well what were the women expecting?'. Why shouldn't better be expected of men?

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Depending on the lighting non black knickers can show through a black dress which makes the specification a design choice. Even if it wasn't what you wear does not indicate consent to pussy grabbing.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

But wasn't it the President's Club?

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Interesting that you pointed hooters out - massively flopped over here. :p It was seen as naf.

Excusing men for their apparent inability to control themselves is condoning such behaviour. As a bloke btw, I think we're better than that. I've never felt it was necessary to go say sexual stuff to somebody while they're working. It's not only inappropriate but freaking weird and desperate >snip<.

Being ogled at is one thing, having unsolicited lewd comments or someone exposing themselves in front of you, is quite another. There is nothing inherent in a hostess' role that makes it objectively 'OK' for the above to happen. Equally, a stripper agreeing to get naked in exchange for money isn't agreeing to physical contact, but punters often think that they're entitled to that and step over that line. Sure there's a risk of that happening, which is why strip clubs often remind punters of what's acceptable/unacceptable. Some strip joints don't and they're failing their duties to those women and men working there.

Blaming the outcome as a result of the choice of clothing is the same argument used in defense of harassment or rape of a woman dressed provocatively on a night out and one which is an old internalised social narrative that proportions blame and responsibility largely at the feet of the woman. Seeing some old sods defending such an argument is really sad. Thankfully the narrative is being rewritten whether you like it or not.

Just because they're happy to wear something risque (because it makes them feel sexy and as something considered fashionable and who may or may not be looking to attract someone), does not mean they resign their rights as a human to be treated with respect and fairness.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

I completely agree. Absolutely revolting behaviour. Yet again such a shame that all the "they were naieve, they were asking for it, they got paid what's the problem" comments are coming out from whichever rock their voicers live under. Some of the comments on t'web are so depressing.

I notice in the pamphlet given to attendees it requested that the didn't sexually harass anyone while at the event. Nice. People shouldn't have to be asked not to sexually harass!

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

No. That sort of event is part of corporate life here, at least among the cradles, I avoid going.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Ha!

I think there's a serious point here though. The President behaves in a manner that would previously not have been acceptable. I think it likely that his conduct will, in due course, cause a shift in social mores so as to make it more acceptable than it might have been a decade ago.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Pun intended?

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

I don't think anyone condones such behavior, but simply one cant just wish the world to be different, maybe the narrative is being re-written but until it is the world is what it is. Taking a job at a male-only event and having to wear prescribed knickers should have raised some questions as to what was likely to occur, as well as non-disclosure agreements.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Naturally. ;) Some work colleagues wanted to go and being open-minded enough I was persuaded. I found it a really really really strange and naf. Girls would randomly burst into cheers and dance on tables to try and distract you from how creepy the underlying intention of the place was.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

TBH, I even find that at Earls in Canada, with all the flirtatious young women in eye-catching outfits. It seems like such a charade, I can see why the girls do it (tips) but not why the old guys delude themselves.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Exactly. There was a perceptible desperation in the guys skewed gaze and girls overzealous jumping. Not too mention the food and beer were subpar - which was inexcusable. I agree many girls use it to their advantage - but that's hardly a fair criticism as you work with what you've got.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Seriously? You're saying that men are guaranteed to assault women given the opportunity? That women wearing matching knickers is likely to make this happen? That signing a non disclosure agreement indicates that something illegal/immoral/offensive is going to happen?

What about other bad behaviour should we just accept that that is going to happen too?

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

:goodpost: . There's also the fact that any of the hostesses using the toilet were timed by a bouncer waiting outside, and if they were in there (probably escaping) for too long they were "brought back out". That their phones were taken from them before the event started too, it all smacks of trapping them there.

I used to dance, and in competitions used to have to wear matching knickers, I always assumed it was to stop them showing through, not that I was handing out invitations to be groped.

The ONLY time a woman (or man) is "asking for it", or should expect anything sexual to happen is if she or he has given their explicit, uncoerced consent, and that they were in sound enough mind and of an age to give consent.

All this nonsense about what did they expect is rage inducing.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

There is a difference between condoning an event and feeling that the people who attend the event should have a reasonable expectation of what is going to happen when they do. I don't, for example, support dog fighting but I'd have little sympathy for someone who went to a dog fight and then complained of being exposed to animal cruelty and gambling.

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

I'm certain that James M would agree with that. :nod:

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Well the Presidents Club is no more, the publicity has closed it down, and rightly so.
https://uk.yahoo.com/news/presidents...172400404.html

Re: What is wrong with people?
 

Robin Camp, the Canadian Judge that you have likely heard of due to the poor reporting about what went on at the trial when he allegedly asked the assailed why she couldn't keep her legs together, questioned the crown prosecutor in great detail about what explicit consent was.

I'd be interested as to what you believe is required, let's say, between a couple that have been together for 2 years.

We know that, in Canada, the law states that no consent is given unless one party asks the other for explicit consent and the other replies "yes" but I'd suggest that, in reality, more often than not, that doesn't happen. In all such circumstances, do you believe that a sexual assault has occurred?