ann m

I was never aware of a strong negative feeling towards vaccinations until the whole MMR debacle. That seemed to stir the pot hugely. And it was made worse when the UK government refused to allow people to have the single vaccinations - it was all or nothing. So many parents opted for nothing. That confusion still hangs in the air today - and now all vaccinations are suspicious.

It doesn't detract from the fact that vaccinations have been hugely successful and beneficial over the decades - and as was mentioned upthread, our generation have no real concept of the crippling and fatal illnesses that have been all but irradicated.

Do we have any BE'er's from Wales, or indeed anywhere else in the UK where the issue flared up, whose kids got measles in the past month or two, or who know someone who got measles? I'd be interested in your views.

geedee

Quite right Ann. Tony blair refusing to answer whether his kids had the MMR shot didn't help either.

Siouxie

Whilst this is a US site, I thought it quite interesting.

http://vaccines.procon.org/



Edit: Having just read the ingredients used in vaccination production, I wonder if a vegan or vegetarian could legitimately refuse some of them as they are produced using cows blood, cows hearts, chicken eggs, chicken embryos, guinea pig cells, green monkey cells, mouse brains, cocker spaniel cells and a whole lot more... ewwww and human embryonic lung cells...

After reading them, I'm not sure I would want them either.

Shocked!

Oakvillian

I don't mean to pick on Geedee specifically here, but this particular assertion is exactly illustrative of the point I made up-thread - that there is a widespread misunderstanding of the nature of risk and statistical analysis.

Of course there's a finite risk of adverse reaction to vaccination. But that risk is (typically) an order of magnitude or two smaller than the risk of complications on contracting the disease. And yet, the innate human response is to avoid the tiny risk of a present, known, course of action while exposing onseself (or one's children) to a much greater risk at some unspecified point in the future.

Take MMR vs measles, for example. There is some evidence to suggest that there is a rare incidence of severe adverse reactions including encephalitis and encephalopathy (inflammation of the brain), at an incidence of slightly more than one per 1,000,000. Conversely, the risk of encephalitis following infection with "wild" measles is greater than one per 2,000 - in other words, more than five hundred times greater risk.

Other adverse affects of measles and mumps (miscarriage or birth defects for pregnant women contracting either disease; infertility for mumps in adolescent or adult men) are significant - something like 2 percent of infections during pregnancy result in miscarriage or foetal abnormality.

I have no background in medicine or pharmacology, so I have no academic or professional basis on which to evaluate the data except as somebody who understands statistical analysis and risk evaluation. My children have certainly all been vaccinated to the full extent available under either the British or Canadian medical system. It would be, in my opinion, irresponsible of me to have come to any other decision.

BristolUK

I'm not trying to be flippant but those people avoiding that one risk - whether or not they are aware of the alternative risk - do they also never feed their kids nuts or strawberries for fear of severe allergy?

I mean looking at it logically, if one avoids a potential small risk as against potential protection one should avoid the danger of nuts and strawberries where the only gain from consumption is a nice taste.

geedee

Oakvillian, don't worry, I don't feel "picked on"! I'm more than happy to have a sensible debate on this subject, with people that are level headed and not deliberately confrontational... but thanks for the reassurance!

I am like everyone else... I want to do the responsible thing for my family, whether that's to pump them full of vaccine or leave well alone!

Your points on risk analysis are well taken. Like you, I am no stranger to that procedure. As you'll know, the level of risk is a combination of probability and consequence. It's always been the possible consequences of certain vaccines that have alarmed me, not so much the probability. I must admit I didn't know that natural measles could cause as many complications as you've indicated. That's probably because every single child I grew up with went through measles, mumps and chicken pox and came through it all just fine.... the odd scar being the exception! The weirdo's got German Measles!

Bristol, I don't think your comment is flippant; it's a very good point. However, I think it's fair to say, that in most cases, allergic reactions are usually quite mild.
The thing is, anyone can be allergic to just about anything (seems especially true in Canada!!). And, it can happen at any time. I had a friend years ago that had been eating shellfish his whole life, with no problem. Then, in his 30's, he ate some prawns (which he'd done hundreds of times before) and went into anaphylactic shock! Lucky for him his wife was a nurse and noticed the symptoms (others would have put it down to food poisoning) and got him an ambulance immediately.... saved his life. That, obviously, was not mild!!

We all live with risks every day. All we can do is do our best to to reduce those where we can..... but it doesn't matter, we all die in the end!

Oakvillian

I think the point with the recent outbreaks of measles and mumps that have been reported in the press is that while symptoms in childhood are often mild and complications are rare, that is not the case in adolescence or early adulthood since several of the complications seem to affect the reproductive system. I haven't seen any analysis of the comparative risks of vaccination side-effects vs secondary symptoms of disease specifically in early childhood, but IMO the overall reduction (in probability and consequence) of risk easily justifies the decision to vaccinate.

But, of course, I appreciate that it is difficult to be completely rational and analytical when comes to making decisions on behalf of one's kids. MY OH and I made this choice; I'm sure there are many others we've made that other people look upon with more than a quizzically raised eyebrow

Jingle

http://www.ecbt.org/index.cfm produced a fact sheet (US data - attached) is written in non-medico language and is, I think, one of the clearer explanations of vaccinations that I have read.

I grew up in the late '50's/early '60's so I personally went through mumps, measles, chicken pox, etc. I was lucky (although I temporarily lost my sight with measles) but I have memories of school friends who were not so lucky and went on to live (some unfortunately did not) with the consequences of all those diseases not forgetting polio (I bet there aren't many of you who remember that - thanks to vaccination). There were no newspaper headlines when my friends died of those diseases or gruesome stories of the suffering that they went through in the years following contraction of them. I sadly lost two friends in school - both from mumps.

My son was born in the 70's and, as a consequence of what I experienced, he was vaccinated against everything that was available - I can't remember any of his friends having any adverse reactions. He is now thinking about having children but is wary about vaccines because of what he has read in the media.

Nowadays cases of the old childhood diseases are fairly uncommon and therefore the effects are not as apparent so I guess it's difficult for people to envisage what life was like when there were rampant cases. I wouldn't want those days to return.

J

Jingle

Sorry attachment didn't work first time .... J

JonboyE

Any parent who chooses not to have their children vaccinated better hope that you live in a more sensible community. You are relying on others being vaccinated to keep your children safe.

Zoe Bell

Having a close relative who bears the lasting consequences of childhood polio I really do think we forget how privileged we are to even be considering this a choice.
My gran used to tell me about the fear struck into the very hearts of communities when the dreaded polio was suspected. No child was safe , you lived in constant fear that your child would be next and if they'd survive to see another birthday.

MillieF

I too grew up in the 60's and was hellishly ill with measles, and had a friend who was in an iron lung. When it was time to vacinate our son it was right in the middle of the Tony Blair hype, and I really had a sleepless week worrying about it. I would have preferred uni doses instead of the MMR, but nevertheless went with my gut feeling and we had him vacinated. The world is so much more cosmopolitan now, and you never know where people have come from, or what they might be carrying...my own husband comes home from God knows where every six weeks, and I watch him like a hawk when he's sick.

Alan2005

Not to mention putting the lives of people who legitimately can't get the vaccine at risk. Young kids recovering from cancer, that kind of thing.

Novocastrian

You remember that paper by Dr. Lucretia Borgia or whatever that geedee put so much stock in upthread? I read it. It's scientifically flawed.

It's based on a correlation between the increase in vaccination rates and the (apparent) increase in autism. No causal relationship is demonstrated (even though the authors claim otherwise, as you'd expect).

You might as well claim that increased autism diagnosis (or whatever) is caused by carbon dioxide concentrations in the atmosphere or the increased prevalence of cellphones. (Oops that's another group of nut jobs).

Alan2005

Wakefield has a lot to answer for. And that Jenny McCarthy.