US immigration reform?
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22102656

I'm not sure what to think of this, should illegal immigrants who have not followed the proper protocol be granted citizenship? Just seems to me like a way to spite those who have legitimately immigrated, I'd certainly be annoyed if Canada decided to do the same thing, but then again Canada does have better structured immigration paths in my opinion so I don't see it ever needing to be considered here in the same way.

I know there is a topic over in the US forum but I'd be curious to hear other people's opinions on this here.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

If they become citizens will they have to be paid more? A Californian once told me that her state's economy would pretty much collapse were it not for all the illegals there. If they are made citizens surely they will be able to demand more money and benefits.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

I think there are grounds for amnesty in many cases. For example, a young family that entered the country illegally, had kids in the new country, worked and were self sufficient - it doesn't make sense to send a family like that back to their homeland. A system could be set up where they agree to pay some back-taxes in return for legal immigration.

Obviously, that has to be part of a bigger solution where there it is made harder for people to immigrate illegally. What the above-board immigrants think or feel is irrelevant. There are massive risks and massive hardships associated with illegal immigration, and those who go through the correct channels are spared that side of things.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

That argument is a bit like saying it's risky stealing cars but if you can pull it off you can keep the car, and your neighbour who pays $2000 per month for the same car he bought legally can't complain because he was never exposed to the risks associated with the theft.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Yes Mr Bond, it is exactly as you say. Good analogy. We can't really complain that we have to pay for our car when other's can obtain one through theft, as theft is not even an option for most of us. Hence, irrelevant.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Surely if you lower the bar or set a precedent then you are opening the floodgates for massed illegal immigration.:confused:

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Definitely can't lower the bar, quite the opposite, it has to be raised (in terms of policing and deportation). However, you can select a worthy section of the illegals to retro-actively grant immigration to. Say someone came in aged 14 with their uncles and aunts, and then is an upstanding citizen for 15+ years, on that kind of criteria I would want to let them stay. I think a blanket amnesty would set the wrong precedent. Of course it comes down to available funding, the fairer the policy, the higher the cost to implement it.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Eh? What's wrong with the immigration paths of the US? I believe the reason why illegal immigration is more rampant in the US is simply because more people wish to go there.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

More specifically, many Mexicans wish to go there, and the country has an enormous land border with Mexico.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

It's not just Mexicans. English computer people in California, Irish bartenders in NYC, there are illegals in the US from all over. In addition to AC's reason, I think there are more illegals in the US than Canada because the US lets less people in legally.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

3 of my English cousins went there in their 20s. None of them did so legally. They all married US citizens and, from that point forward, were "legal".;)

I accept all that you say about Mexicans.

If the ball was on the other foot, one wonders how many Republican politicians would be accused of pandering to their future electorate by the Democrats.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Yes of course there are illegals from everywhere, and the US, unlike Canada, is a magnet for some people in every country (North Korea being a possible exception). But there main "issue" is with the Mexicans, which is ironic, as they pre-date the yankees anyway.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

I don't think that holds. It may be that their main issue is with people entering from Mexico but I doubt that's even true in Miami.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Do illegals in any country pay taxes?
How can they pay taxes into programmes like EI, CPP and Federal taxes if they are illegal and dont have valid social insurance numbers.
I agree they pay consumption taxes on goods they buy.
A single male caught being illegal is much easier to deport than a family of 4 who have been flying under the radar for 10 years.
Some of the illegals do contribute to society and would make good citizens however that is not the point.
Yes they could use the Amnesty but is that fair on those who are legally seeking their way into that country and have to wait years in some cases to get in.
The Govt of the day will decide how they deal with it and they certainly wont let the public vote on it so we really dont have a say.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

They can't but that doesn't necessarily make them less valuable to the host country than legal immigrants. They can't make any claim on the government, they can't commit any sort of crime; even a speeding ticket leads to detection of lack of license, lack of work permit, deportation and a week off work before the driver can get back. Illegals have to make an effort to be in the country, they have to have saleable skills (not ones on a government list but ones someone will actually pay for) and they have to stay out of trouble. There's a case that they're the best immigrants.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Some illegals do pay taxes and make claims if they are able to register under a false identity (eg. a deceased).

Re: US immigration reform?
 

You make some very good points but I could point you to numerous cases where illegals do commit crimes yet they still dont get deported as they then appeal and in some cases win or their deportation is stayed based on Human Rights which may or may not be true.
We all know that in the low paying skills types of jobs certain employers will employ them as it saves them money ie no payroll or records of employment.
I cant fault an illegal wanting to work but lay blame on the employer in giving them a job and not doing their due diligence.
On a day to day basis illegals really don't affect us. We go about our daily routine. So now you get laid off and you are now finding it hard to get work in a non professional field. You know that X employer employs illegals and you wish to work there but there are no jobs available do you shop the employer to the authorities or go its oki I will look for work elsewhere.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Without a doubt shop the employer (if you know it is true). In many cases the illegal is being exploited and in some cases dangerously exploited.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

In the computer industry, as on farms, the "employer" can reasonably be assumed to have knowledge that the workers are undocumented. It doesn't matter because there are multiple layers of shell company between the "employer" and the "employee". The "employer" has no obligation nor responsibility toward the "employee". I don't see that there's any blame to be laid, it's just business.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

That's a ludicrous cliche. It's not the Grapes of Wrath. If, for example, buildings are to be built in the GTA, then the government should turn a blind eye. Nothing will get done if you send the builders home!

Re: US immigration reform?
 

I wonder how the US would deal with this individual Abu Qatada the hate cleric currently in the UK
http://www.usaukonline.com/latest-ne...eport-him.html

Re: US immigration reform?
 

In the GTA they do turn a blind eye where construction jobs are concerned :lol:
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/12/04...ar-deportation

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Yes, my brother's first job here was standing in for people who'd been thrown out. He'd get a fortnight or so before the original worker came back. His employer had a fair number of staff in the GTA and in Calgary and there'd very often be one gone. Years later one of the owners of the firm moved to Australia, I asked why and was amused when he said it was because he could be legal there. Now that I reflect on it, he told me this in a pub where the bartender and one of the, three, partners, had no status in Canada. It's rampant, rampant I tell ya!

Re: US immigration reform?
 

A friend of mine (Cradle Canadian) has just moved to California. They're a hairdresser, working in other people's homes and do a bit of painting on the side. Very easy to work and make a living without having status.

I have another acquaintance who did the same in Florida for more than 10 years, including owning a property. The challenge is not in staying, but being able to leave and come back. The former was caught and deported and likely will never be able to return.

It's relatively easy to do.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

In the US you don't need a social security number to pay taxes or file a tax return, the IRS has the individual tax payer ID number for those who are foreign tax payers, illegals, or otherwise don't qualify for a SSN #. Since the IRS doesn't track immigration status of those who file taxes it's hard to say how many are illegal immigrants.

But most experts agree that illegals are and do pay taxes each year.

Some also use stolen or fake SSN's. Most employers don't check if the number is valid, only check to see if you have a SS card and an ID, some states will issue illegals ID's now, and its not exactly hard to create a social security card, its a flimsy piece of paper.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

The US has a quota on employment-based permanent residency every year of 140,000, Canada allows more employment-based permanent residents than that in total numbers every year (around 150,000), let alone per capita and has one-ninth of the population.

It's fantastically easier to get a work permit to work in Canada than in the US. The H-1B quota for the US is 85,000 per year, and that assumes you are skilled enough to even qualify for it. As compared with Canada, where there is no quota. H-2A (seasonal agricultural workers) has no quota, but H-2B which is somewhat similar to the Canadian Foreign Worker programme has a cap of 66,000.

The US grants about a million people permanent resident status per year, whereas in Canada it is somewhere around 225,000, in a country with a ninth of the population and overwhelmingly people in the US get it through family-based immigration.

Without question it is a vastly more restrictive system as far as employment-based immigration goes. Even the fees are far higher.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

To do that you have to get a waiver on I-601, which until recently was pretty hard to get.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

How do you know the SIN is valid? This is a problem I mentioned on here before, there is no way to know.

There is no photograph on the SIN card, they could be using a fake SIN or more likely another person's.

In Canada there is a federal privacy Act but provinces can have their own if they want, and Alberta does. So I asked them how I could verify the SIN was real. Call the CRA they said, which I did and that tells you nothing if it has been stolen or borrowed.

The privacy dept. in Alberta told me I cannot require other ID unless it is related to the job. I can ask, but they don't have to show me.

The method they use is SINs that begin with "9" but that doesn't help if the SIN is stolen.

In the US you have to fill in form I-9 when you start work which requires you to show ID plus many employers use the E-verify system, I think there should be some equivalent to the I-9 in Canada.

There are still ways of defeating the US system but I won't go into them here.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Believe me I've done my due diligence, well beyond what the law required and it tells you f all.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Tell that to the Chinese cockle pickers in Morecambe Bay...oh wait, you can't.

In certain cases, a hairdresser, maybe some of your IT chums, where the risk to the public is low, and where there is no effect on wages, exceptions could be made. But generally it's in the public interest to discourage illegal employment.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

In the abstract sense that lower wages are bad for the public at large, perhaps.

Against this we have to consider the lower cost of public works if undocumented labour is used, more stations built, more libraries and so on. We have to consider jobs onshored, such as in Toronto's sewing sweatshops; at least the wages earned are spent in the country where paid.

One can make a case that illegal labour is bad for the labourers but it may be that the dead cockle pickers would otherwise have been dead slave labourers at home; we can't say that they were worse off in the UK.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

il·le·gal [ih-lee-guhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
forbidden by law or statute.
2.
contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass.
noun
3.
Informal. illegal alien.

Many things are illegal drugs, speeding, theft and a host of other things regardless of if we agree with them.
Many of us work in our day to day jobs that are covered by some form of law be it minimum wage or industry standard wage. An employer cannot pay you less than the prescribed amount as that would be illegal.
How would you feel if someone came along and offered to do your job for less money that was below the legal amount. If your employer hired that person and put you out of a job would you then claim thats illegal.
Until it directly affects us as an individual or the job we do then we tend not to care about it being illegal.
Yes we can cherry pick certain things like speeding and try to justify our actions but if its illegal then usually there are consequences and if illegal by law there is usually a punishment.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

I don't dispute that it is harder to immigrate legally to the US when compared to Canada.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Undocumented labour (as you put it) is a distortion to the economy. It effects wage levels, employability, safety standards, quality, labour standards and justice. It impedes planning it undermines efficiency measures. What happens when the construction firm using documented labour can't win any tenders because its bid is too high? Greece had a massive black economy with undocumented labour and in particular undocumented earnings. It's a slippery slope.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

In Australia the press goes wild if 50 people turn up illegally on a boat. How they would cope with US or even UK numbers of illegals, I dread to think.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Is there an argument that having high levels of illegal workers lowers the wages for everyone?

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Absolutely. Wage suppression is one of the main purposes of legal immigration, which is why Labour opposed EU entry for so long. Illegal must have a push-down effect on local wage economies.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

Surely the concern in the US is the reverse, the economy is dependent upon undocumented labour; ending the supply now would force the price of goods up.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

It would push both prices and wages up.

Re: US immigration reform?
 

The Chinese cockle pickers had entered the UK having destroyed their passports. The Chinese government have a policy of not accepting returned nationals who do not have official documentation so, although the authorities were well aware of their presence, there was nothing that could be done to remove them from the UK. Detainiing them would have been an administrative exercise, and they'd have been released almost immediately.